The Nashville MUSE — Musician & Songwriter Interviews

Doak – Hello Mike Thanks for the call this morning! I’ve been hearing good things about you!

Mike – We just got back a fun time playing beside the water in Florida with Jason Aldeen, Craig Morgan and a couple other acts this past weekend – a lot of fun!

Mike – My brother Tom and I played in Wilmington, NC for ten years before moving to Nashville a couple years ago. We played, bars, weddings anything we could play around the area – Wild Wing Café and Oceanic Pier on the ocean.

Mike – Two years ago and we had a goal set in mind to work hard to get out name and music out there! We played 5 nights a week in Wilmington. When we moved to Nashville, We heard about Rachel (singer in the band) – there was a buzz going around town about her – we loved her voice and we sent her a message on her myspace, she responded and we started co-writing and playing – we called our band, The Midnight Three – we played 3rd & Lindsley, Wild Horse and a bunch of other venues in town.. One night we played 3rd and Lindsley and Cheyenne Kimball was in the place, meeting with her manager. She came up to us and said she liked our music and wanted to know if we were looking for someone or not, and that she’d like to be part of our band. We knew who she was and we gave it a try, it clicked we wrote our first song called “Time To Let me Go” which is on our first CD. We had a development deal after a month of writing and singing that song.

Doak – I was downtown Nashville a couple months ago and remember seeing someone towing a car for a video – and it was YOUR video

Mike – Did ya see all those police escorts – that was a fun night! We are nominated for two CMT Awards for that video!

Mike – My brother Tom and I have been writing and playing for about 10 years. We hooked up with Matt Serletic (record producer who has worked with several popular bands and artists for Atlantic Records, including Collective Soul, Matchbox Twenty, Blessid Union of Souls, Edwin McCain, Stacie Orrico, Taylor Hicks, and Rob Thomas. He also preceded Jason Flom as chairman of Virgin Records). Matt is a Grammy Award winning producer. We’ve learned so much from making this record with Matt. I love just being in the room with him and the band!

Mike - We brought in 20 to 30 top songwriters one weekend – Jeffrey Steele, Stephanie Bentley, Ben Glover and other hit songwriters, we had a writing camp weekend, breaking off into groups of 3 and wrote 50 to 60 songs that weekend – it was crazy – non-stop. We picked the 13 best of those songs for the album.

Mike – We all agreed which ones we liked the best as most of them just stood out among the others.

Doak – Now you are touring your dreams are coming true – sold-out arenas – what is your life like now?

Mike – Being out on tour with Taylor is the best – she is one of the coolest people to hang out with – above and beyond out of her way to make us feel welcome – putting us in her videos, website and everything and we have 46 shows left on the tour and our dreams are coming true.

Mike- Mom is freaked out – they are proud, texting and calling us and telling us how proud they are for us every day,

Doak – Are all of your friends calling, wanting tickets and their kids want to meet Taylor Swift?

D – Have ya been hanging out with Scott Borchetta – owner of Big Machine records and responsible much of the success of Taylor Swift and one of the most respected people in the music business?

Mike – Yea – Scott is a great guy and I enjoy hanging out with him and learning from him. We got to meet his dad, Mike (well known record promoter) and really liked talking with him at Country Radio Seminar for a while. It was an honor to spend time with Mike.

Doak – What kept you and your brother going all these years – to keep you in the game when nothing is happening for your career?

Mike - There were shows playing for two or 3 people and we were playing night after night – pouring our heart out playing cover tunes and our original songs. Music is something we always loved and played the same if there were one or 100,000. We started playing music when we were little and just love playing music anywhere we go!

Doak – That wasn’t too not bad playing in Wilmington all those years – around the beach was it?

Mike – Oh yea - used to play at the Oceanic Pier – four hour gigs, carrying our sound system on a 300 yard pier to play and you are ruining your gear with the salt water, sweating all Saturday night, but it was fun! We played a lot at Wild Wing Café in Wilmington too!

Mike – We are always writing it is important to keep writing all the time to stay sharp.

Doak – From a writer’s standpoint – any thoughts on songwriting perhaps to someone just moved to town – what would you say to them?

Mike - Write an honest story from the heart. Write them to give someone goose bumps. Songwriting is like fishing, you sit around and wait and once in a while – something good comes along. Write from the heart is the best advice I could give someone.

Mike – I never studied the mechanics of songwriting, I just wrote from the heart.

Doak – Did you visualize along your journey that you’d be playing these sold out arenas like you are on the tour?

Mike - I cannot believe going from playing Wild Wing Café and Oceanic Pier in Wilmington to Madison Square Garden and Staples Center – just a dream come true!

Doak - We live in the same neighborhood in Nashville – we should go to Bojangles and have lunch sometime – you had Bojangles Chicken in Wilmington didn’t you?

Mike – (Laughs) Yea – I love Bojangles Cajun Filet Biscuits – one of my favorite restaurants!

Jen Adan is enjoying her first major cut as a songwriter after moving to Nashville from California after one year.
Below is an interview with Jen discussing how and happened and what it feels like to have her first success of a #1 song on the charts.

Doak – Tell me how the song started and an overview of the past 5 or so months of your songwriting career.

Jen - She Wouldn't Be Gone' was the first song Cory Batten and I wrote together. We happened to be sitting next to some red flowers at Edgehill Cafe in Nashville. We just started small on a "wildflower" idea, and then the song grew out of that. "Just like in life, it's the little things that we sometimes fail to notice that could make the biggest difference in our lives," Cory said, talking about the wildflower idea. Cory and I both knew we had created something special that day. The song has been on the charts now for 26 weeks and at #1 for two weeks!
Doak - Jen, since your song started going up the charts, how has your life changed? Have your co-writers changed?
Jen - My life has changed so much! I can't get this smile off my face, for one! And I just feel so blessed to be at the place I'm at. My co-writers are incredible. My favorite people to write with are Megan Conner, Canaan Smith, Zach Below and so many other people! They inspire me in so many ways and I feel so lucky to be able to write with them!
Doak – Are you getting any requests from hit songwriters that started calling you to co-write now – as opposed to prior to the song going up the charts?
Jen – Yes, I am gettting emails/calls from hit writers as well as suggestions from other people who to write with.
Doak - Have your writing habits changed and your approach to songwriting changed?
Jen - My writing habits haven't changed. I want to write songs that will get cut. I want to write good songs and that is what I continue to strive for. I want to write with people who balance me as a writer and who bring the best out in me.
Doak - How are you prepared financially – your life is going to change – so are you working with someone to prepare you for the financial changes and what have you learned along the way regarding that subject?
Jen - I am so prepared! My dad handles all of that for me and I have some great people I'm working with and who have given me great advice. My sister wants to open a bakery and her big sister will help her do that!
Doak – Mentally – what has happened as you watched your song go up the charts – every week looking and what was your response and how did you hear your dream of a #1 song came true?
Jen - It is absolutely unbelievable. I feel like this is all a dream or a cruel joke someone is playing on me. I just smile and say a little Thank you to God! I am so grateful! I am just so excited and Blake laughs at me and gets so excited that I'm so excited! He was the first one to congratulate me when the song went #1 the first week.

Doak – how did Blake tell you about the song going to #1?
Jen - Blake sent me a text. The first thing that went through my mind was O......M......G........followed by a huge smile! Blake is precious! I love him!

Doak – I’ve met your mom, what has her part been on this journey – especially the past couple of months? What have the phone calls to her been like?
.Jen - She is my biggest fan and supporter! She believes in me and pushes me to keep going and never give up. She is such a precious Angel in my life! Both her, my dad and my sister have been amazing and I don't know what I would do without them and I know that I would have never made it without them. My mom talks to EVERYONE and tells them about me from the bag clerk at the grocery store to her nail lady. They are so proud!
Doak – Let’s back up a little. How long have you been in Nashville and where did you move from?
Jen - I have been in Nashville for just a year and I moved from San Mateo, CA which is in Northern CA about 20 minutes south of San Francisco.

Doak - How long have you been writing songs?
Jen - Since I was about 10 years old. At first I thought it was just a hobby and didn't really know where my inspiration was coming from and then 100 songs later, I realized that I had something special going on and I needed to find out where this was going.
Doak - What has your experience been like since moving to Nashville?

Jen - It was definitely a big change from California but I love it. The people are so friendly and the food is amazing! But I do miss CA weather and I do not like the tornados so much...

Doak - What have been some of the biggest challenges and also some of the good things that may have helped keep you on the journey?

Jen - Well my biggest challenge at the moment is trying to work a part time job and work a full time music career. That has been the most challenging. I need money to feed my creativity and I have been trying to balance and it is getting more and more challenging. The biggest motivation that has kept me going is the songwriting! I want this more than anything else and the fact that it is right there in front of me is reason enough to make me stay. And now with my Blake Shelton song coming out, there is no turning back to California now! And all of the support I get from my parents, sister and friends have been the extra push I need to not give up.

Doak - How important are your friends in Nashville to keeping you going?

Jen - They have all been so amazing!! I feel so blessed and so lucky to have the kind of support system that I have, especially coming into Nashville not knowing hardly anyone.

Doak - How important is your family’s support and what have they done to help you on your songwriting journey?

Jen - My family is the most important thing in my life and I am so blessed to have them in my life supporting me the way they do. They would do anything for me and they just about have! I owe them so much. They will be the first people I thank in my Grammy winning speech! Ha-ha they have given me constant love and encouragement, and to never loose faith in the gifts God has given me.

Doak How often do you write and how do you pick your co-writers?

Jen - I write every single day! Even if it's just an idea, I make sure I write it down. I pick my co-writers based on writing style and personality. I love people who share the same passion for songwriting as I do and I love when they can musically and lyrically think outside of the box. That's how I know we'll be good co-writers.

Doak - How did you and Cory end up writing the song? Where did the hook come from? Did you re-write the song at anytime? Do the two of you write often?

Jen - I met Cory at Douglas Corner a few months after I moved to town and I approached him after the show and told him I loved his music, gave him my business card and he contacted me and we wrote together. We wrote "She Wouldn't Be Gone" at Edgehill Studios Cafe (which is where I LOVE to write! (Great atmosphere) The hook came randomly from God! Cory and I had a couple of ideas and we were writing by a patch of red flowers and he started just fooling around with the red flower idea and the rest just came out. We fixed a couple words on the song before we had it produced but not much re-writing and we didn't sit down together to go over the song and re-write. We write together as often as we can, considering we both have busy schedules.

Doak - What was the process of writing the song – the idea – do you remember much about the session?

Jen – The idea just sort of came out of nowhere and we just started writing about whatever we saw and went from there. And we wrote pretty much in order of the song...verse 1 chorus verse 2...and we wrote the song pretty quickly!

Doak - Then what happened after writing the song? What was the demo like and where did you record it?

Jen - We decided to produce the song and did so at Larry Beaird Studios. The demo is almost identical to the way Scott Hendricks produced it. You can hear the demo on my myspace page or Cory’s myspace page and then you can hear Blake's version (and buy it) on itunes.

Doak - Who heard the song that really believed in it and how did it make its way to Blake?

Jen - Everyone who has heard the song loved it and said it was definitely going to get cut! But Cory had brought the song to Scott Hendricks over at Warner Brothers and he is the one who said "YES THIS IS IT!" Scott produces Blake Shelton among others.

Doak - What did you do – when you heard he cut it, it made the CD and NOW – you heard it is going to be THE NEXT SINGLE? What were your thoughts when you heard his version of your song? Did they change it very much?

Jen - When I first found out Blake Shelton was going to cut my song I was in my apartment and I think I jumped up and down started screaming and then cried and then laughed and then jumped some more! Then when I found out it was going to be his first single off his new album, I was in the car with my friend (she was driving) and I called my mom right away and was crying! And then now that I hear it and can see it and can download it and then eventually buy the CD and I am able to hear it on the radio...it is just unreal. I am seeing my dreams come together and it's an amazing feeling.

Doak - SO – what are you doing different with your songwriting– if anything?

Jen - I am not really doing anything different with my songwriting. It is always about the song for me when I write. I don't hold on to any lyrics or melody ideas because they have to change in order to make the song amazing. And that's what it is all about. Making the song the best it can be. I am always growing as a writer and I like to write songs in ways that other people wouldn't normally think about. I also like to try to combine genres and see what happens. I stretch my ideas and my songs to the limit.

Doak - Do you have a publishing deal – how did that happen?

Jen - I do not have a publishing deal but I started my own publishing company back in California called Tommy Jo Publishing. And at the moment I am shopping around for different publishers and being set up with co-writes and enjoying every minute of all of it!

Doak - What are your future goals?

Jen - I am a writer. I want to write. I want to write songs, screenplays for TV shows and movies, I want to write children's books, novels, greeting cards, I just want to write and continue to be successful with my writing. God has given me the gift of words and I want my words to be heard around the world! I want the world to hear what I feel.

Bruce Burch has had success in many facets of the music business including being a hit songwriter, operating his own publishing companies of hit songs, working for a major music publishing company, as well as being an artist manager. As a songwriter, Burch co-wrote two #1 singles for Reba McEntire, �Rumor Has It� and �It�s Your Call�. These two songs were also the album titles for two of Reba�s most successful albums. Burch also co-wrote songs on two other Reba albums, all of which have gone multi-platinum, selling well over 15 million records and CDs. He has also had top 10 songs on Billy Joe Royal (�Out Of Sight and On My Mind�), and T. Graham Brown (�The Last Resort�), a Top 20 song �Train Of Thought� recorded by Barbara Mandrell, and a Top 40 single �You Can�t Keep A Good Memory Down� recorded by John Anderson. Bruce has also had platinum and gold album recordings by George Jones, The Oak Ridge Boys, Collin Raye and Dan Seals. Bruce also authored a book �Songs That Changed Our Lives�. Two chapters of this inspiring book were picked to be included in the �Chicken Soup For The Soul� series of books. Amy Kurland, the owner of the Bluebird Caf� also asked Bruce to write a chapter for her new book on the history of the Bluebird that has recently been released by a major book publisher. Burch was inducted into the Atlanta Country Music Hall of Fame in November 2003. Recently Burch began a new chapter in his career as he was named Administrative Director of the new Music Business Program which he helped to create at his alma mater, the University of Georgia.

Doak � Bruce � you are a hit songwriter, successful publisher and now in charge of a great school of music at Georgia University! How did all that happen to one person?

Bruce - I often tell my students that success in the music business is surviving. That is what I've done-survive. I love being in "showbiz" and have been fortunate enough to be able to stay in it because I was resourceful.

Doak � You came to Nashville and were working at the front desk of a hotel and then were you signed to a publishing deal or how did the pub deal happen?

Bruce - One of the first people I met in Nashville was the great songwriter Mark Germino. I gave Mark one of my tapes of a few songs after about a year in Nashville. He passed it along to the legendary writer/publisher Paul Craft ("Dropkick Me Jesus", "Midnight Flyer", "Brother Jukebox). It took Paul two years to get to it but he called me on a Sunday and said he liked what he heard. Paul signed me shortly thereafter.

Doak � Talk a little about your days as a music publisher at EMI and wherever else you worked on the publishing side of the biz.

Bruce - I had my own publishing company for 5 years as I really couldn't find anyone who I felt pitched my songs as hard as I did. I actually think I was a better songplugger than a songwriter. I had some success on my own and my friend and mentor Gary Overton, who had taken over heading EMI Publishing in Nashville called me to come meet with him. I was actually trying to sell my catalog and find a publishing deal at the time so I thought that was what the meeting was about. After Gary and I sat down, I pulled out my CD of songs to play him and he said he didn't want to talk to me about writing for him, he wanted to talk to me about plugging the older "classic" catalog at EMI. I was sort of dumbfounded at first and told him I would think about it over the weekend. By the time I got down to the door to leave I knew I was going to take the job as some of my favorite writers of all time were in the EMI catalog including Kris Kristofferson, Dennis Linde, Tony Joe White and Tammy Wynette. It was too good to pass up! In the time I worked at EMI I got to meet all of them and to know Kris, Dennis, and Tony Joe pretty well. Plus I got a song recorded by everyone of them!

Doak � Now � you created and direct the University of Georgia Music Business Program � how did that happen?

Bruce - My friend Dr. Pam Browne hired me to teach a class at Belmont on music publishing and I loved it. I was a teacher and football coach for a year before I moved to Nashville to be a songwriter and that's what I would still be doing had I not come to Nashville. I don't have a doctorate which you need to teach in most university programs but I felt like I had been in the "school of hard knocks" in the music industry and had been a writer, a publisher, and even managed a couple of artists so I had a pretty good background in the music industry. I graduated from UGA and also grew up in GA and I was so surprised they still didn't have a music business program in such a great music town like Athens, GA (home to R.E.M., Widespread Panic, The B-52's, and many other great bands). Plus the Atlanta music industry has blown up in the past decade. So I approached Dean George Benson of the Terry College of Business at UGA where my brother David served on the Board. He loved the idea but it took us 4 years to get it up and running. I also found a donor in George Fontaine (owner of New West Records and a UGA graduate). It wouldn't have happened without Dean Benson and George's support.

Doak � UGA Music Business Program � when did it start and what is happening at the school? What has the first year or two been like for you?

Bruce - We started classes in January 2006. We have had about 150 students go through the program so far. It is a Certificate Program which means it's 7 courses totaling 21 hours of class. We are fortunate in that there is a music industry in Athens and Atlanta so the students can get a lot of real world education by doing externships and internships in music businesses. The industry has opened their arms to us. We have had 25 students who have now graduated and gained the certificate and 21 of those have paying jobs in the music industry which is pretty incredible given the shape the industry is in right now. But I think it's a great time for young people to get into the business. First of all they are so technologically savvy. Think of the biggest things that have happened in the business like myspace, facebook, and youtube. All of them were started by kids in their 20's. Plus since Georgia is a new music industry center there are a lot of new positions opening up all the time. I'm loving being back in Georgia too though I miss my buddies in Nashville! I still get back up there every couple of months!

Bruce - The opportunity to be a mentor to some really cool young people. Plus it's a little less nerve wracking than living by your wits writing songs or sweating blood songplugging.

Doak � Tell me about some of the successes of your graduates � job in the business as a result of going to your program.

Bruce - We had one student, Kevin Jeter, beat out 75 other candidates for a job at Live Nation in Atlanta. Also we have 3 students working in Nashville. Stephanie Mundy is working at Flood, Bumstead, McCready & McCarthy a business management firm, Jon Prine is working for PGA Global Music Agency which books R.E.M. and Widespread Panic and also co-manages Panic, and Taylor Cheek is working for Brentwood-Benson Music Publishing. We also have students working for NARAS in Atlanta, Clear Channel in Atlanta, and recently had one get hired by Universal Motown in NYC.

Bruce - I still love music and Athens and Atlanta have a lot of great music. Plus I still get to see a lot of great Nashville writers and artists come through town like Phil Vassar, Luke Bryan, Rhett Akins, Hillary Lindsay, and Dallas Davidson who speak to our class. Hillary's sister Taylor is in our program and also Rosie Siman, Scott Siman's daughter, and Alex Hall, who's Dad is Jimmy Hall (of Wet Willie fame) have come through our program.

Doak � To sum everything up Bruce � it has been a please talking with you � any final comments you�d like to pass on to the great music industry?

Bruce - I just want to say how much I appreciate the Nashville music industry for being a great place to learn what I am passing on to a new generation. It was a great "classroom" and I had a lot of unbelievable mentors such as Bob Beckham, Dennis Linde, Paul Craft, Gary Overton, Glenn Middleworth, Layng Martine, T. Graham Brown, Roger Murrah, and the list goes on and on. I could never thank everyone who supported and taught me while I was in Nashville. I just hope I can help someone else and pass it on!

Doak Turner is a songwriter and owns the Nashville Muse www.nashvillemuse.com site and e-zine sent to 10,000+ readers every week. doak@nashvillemuse.com

Randy Owen interview – December 2007 at Dale Morris Agency headquarters.

Randy Owen – former singer and songwriter with the most successful country artist of all time! Go to www.alabama.com for more information on the band.

Doak – You have about 40 songs credited on ALABAMA albums – about 18 of them co-written with Teddy Gentry, a couple with Jeff Cook, Greg Fowler and various other songwriters.

Randy – back in the early days, there were a lot of people on the buses and it was hard to write on them. We flew a lot and it was hard to write on the airplanes – up and down and all that goes with being on those airplanes (laughs). We got so busy when we became “Popular” and didn’t write as much as I would have liked to back then.

Randy – a lot of the songwriting was spontaneous writing. I just did not set a time to co-write.

Doak – What is your process for writing a song and has it changed over the years?

Randy - I wish I had a formula – like the great writers – but that is not me. I wish I could!

Doak – The great song, “Feels So Right” – one of the songs on the new CD, The Last Stand that is only available at Cracker Barrel. Do you remember writing that one?

Randy - I was 17 and wrote song one afternoon about my sweetheart, I had never known anyone that was as beautiful as that girl. A couple years later I played it for a girl from West Virginia back when we were playing at The Bowery in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. I was thinking about changing the 2nds verse and when I played the song - she told me not to re-write that 2nd verse– so I didn’t change it. I played at the Bowery one night and people seemed to like it. When ALABAMA became bigger I played it for Harold Shedd (our producer) in the studio at The Music Mill in Nashville. We cut the song and I didn’t play my original licks, but the musicians made it sound so good. I sang the song that night and people in the studio felt really good about, “Feels So Right”. When we were doing the 2nd June Jam in Fort Payne, Alabama – I was singing that song – looked across the lights – and the light beam was in the face of the girl that I wrote the song for years earlier – we smiled at each other – it was a special moment!

After the song was a big hit – Francis Preston of BMI called me and asked if I needed money. She said she could advance me some money as I told her I wanted a home for me and my wife. Francis told me I could build a real nice house! As you go into the gates of that home – “Feels So Right” is right there on the gates!

On the new CD “The Last Stand” – it is a different arrangement – the way I originally recorded the song when I wrote it. The song was important to me – because I would sing it a little different than the record when we were on the road – make it more personal to the audience –one on one with each person. A lot of people told me over the years that several babies were born because of that song – a lady told me one time that she and her man were listening too long to that song one night and a baby named Joey was born nine months later as a result!

Doak – how long between the time that you wrote “Feels So Right” and you cut it on an album?

Randy - It was 10 or 12 years later for the song to be cut after I wrote it– “Hold on to those great songs”!

Doak - Now – who are you co-writing with for your new CD that is coming out – produced by John Rich?

Randy – I’ve been writing with John Rich and his crew Shannon Lawson, James Otto, and Vicki McGhee – The Muzic Mafia folks. I love those people – takes me back to the Myrtle Beach days – the Muzic Mafia is what I stepped into in Myrtle Beach in 1973 – all the varieties of music and people – and they all loved music of all kinds – Rock, Country, Southern Rock Mickey Spillain the famed author used to hang out with us – he would buy us beers when we didn’t have a lot of money– we’d go to his house in Murrell’s Inlet – just below Myrtle Beach and we’d have an oyster fry and shrimp and a bunch of great food an many Sunday afternoons. I saw him a couple years ago before he passed way and he said he was working on another book at the time.

Doak – What songwriter that is no longer with us would you have loved to written song with if it would have been possible?

RANDY – (pause) HANK - The king of them all!

Doak - What would that have been like to write with Hank Williams – ya wonder?

Randy - I just know I admire the lyrics simple way that he got across the rhyme schemes, and all that still floors me – how this man could write these songs and it is like how can you write that perfect, deep, true and be so honest – Hank was the best! There are so many great writers – but he would be the one to write with if I could.

Doak – Did you write with many of the songwriters on Music Row back in the day?

Randy - I didn’t have a chance to as we were so busy on the road – a couple hundred shows a year and all the interviews, radio stations, people wanting to talk with us – just didn’t have the time to write much on The Row.

Doak – tell me about the song, “My Homes in Alabama” . You closed every show with that song and it always gave me chills to watch ALABAMA do that song!

Randy - – Teddy Gentry and I were writing that song – one of us wrote about the state and one of us wrote about the band. I don’t remember which one of us was writing about what – but we worked it out! When we went to record it in the studio I finished the second verse (recites the lyrics).

When we wrote the song, “My Homes in Alabama”, – all we had was the first verse. We sang at the Bowery one night – played just the verse and the chorus of the song. There was a big guy that walked up to the stage and said, – said, “That’s the best southern rock song ever written. All those Southern Rock songs – Charlie Daniels, Marshall Tucker Band, Skynard - all of them and that big guy told us that about our song – wow– that gave us a boost of energy! I just could not believe he said that to us!

Randy – if it were me – I would do you want to be a commercial songwriter and make a lot of money –or be a songwriter and if you get a cut – you are going to be known for the songs you write? Two approaches to songwriting the way I see it. I chose to write songs that felt they were unique to me and thank God, ALABAMA came along – those songs may not have been recorded by anyone else. Hank Jr. recorded, “Tennessee. River” and that was a blessing and an honor to have him cut that song. I think that if you want to be a commercial songwriter– come to Nashville, follow and watch the great writers and learn how to eventually write with them!

Doak Turner is a songwriter in Nashville and owner of the Nashville Muse www.nashvillemuse.com . Contact Doak doak@nashvillemuse.com

The Redheads — Interview on The Nashville Muse

The Redheads, named for their long fiery red hair, are Britta, 19 and her sister/co-writer Brooke, 16. These Florida girls, living in Cartersville,Georgia but Nashville bound could very well be the next big thing. With their upbeat, sassy tunes such as "Boys Will Be Boys" and my personal favorite, the comical "Hillbillies Living in the City", they are headed for the big time. Don`t be fooled, they also touch very delicate subjects such as child abuse with their soothing melodic "Light a Candle". With the perfect combination of sweet and spicy ear catching music, these girls are a force to be reckoned with in country music. They make monthly trips to Nashville learning the craft and business and working on a great future with their music!

Jenna - Nashville is very competetive, where do you get your drive to keep going from?
Brooke - Well, for us, country music has always been a matter of the heart. At eleven years old I was trampled by my horse- beat up head to toe. Everyone thought I would be okay because there weren't any broken bones. But scar tissue had formed throughout my muscles and when I grew all my muscles ripped. Over night, I went from being in runners club, horse back riding, advanced ballet to not being able to walk for a full year. I lost my entire twelve year old year and to be honest a lot of dreams were shattered for me. I became very quiet and reserved. Just very, very, genuinely sad. I remember was laying in my bed one day flipping through channels when I found the country music station. The songs just grabbed my heart and shook it up. There were the sad songs like "Angels In Waiting" that were good to hear when you needed a good cry but most importantly just the fun songs that really got me involved in country music. Reba's song I'm Gonna Take That Mountain became my own personal theme song and my inspiration. I became a huge country music fan. It brought me out of my shell and made me laugh again. This has been more of a spiritual journey more than a journey for fame or fortune for me. I want to see how far this can go and do take it very seriously. Country music is all from the heart. Its songs from the heart and that's where I'd say we both get our drive from. I'll turn it over to Britta to tell her side of the story...
Britta- Yes, I agree with Brooke. That was our journey and how it all began with us. And our journey continues and we are thankful for all the amazing people and experiences we have encountered along the way. We don't get caught up in a feeling of competitiveness, we feel like everyone in Nashville has something to offer. We enjoy watching and listening to other aspiring songwriters. We rely on our hearts and our hard work to carry us through.
Jenna - How supportive have your parents been throughout your journey so far?
Brooke & Britta - Our parents have been very supportive. They've made many sacrifices for us. We even laugh. Our Dads car is like Chitty Chitty Bang Bang and he really needs a new car. But instead of getting things for his own self, he always makes sure we have guitar lessons, seminars, new strings, anything we need for the business. Our Mom makes sure we're safe and sound. Neither one is pushy or a stage parent or anything like that. They basically let us lead the way and make the decisions of our own careers.
Jenna - How do you deal with rejection and how important is it to build up tough skin in this town?
Brooke- It is important to have a tough skin. No matter what field you go into you can't take rejections to heart. Its all a learning process.
Britta- Both of us did advance ballet for years and boy, talk about rejection and criticism. I think that helped us build a tough skin. And yes, you need to have a tough skin in this business. Rejection is a part of life. You embrace it and never lose your drive.
Jenna - What are some key things you have learned from the Nashville circuit?
Brooke - Nashville is amazing. So many talented, wonderful people here. There's just no place like Nashville. The song writing community is so gifted. There's so many open mics and clubs around town. We just love The Bluebird Café. It is absolutely precious.
Britta - We have learned so much and are so thankful to be chasing our dreams. Nashville is the coolest town ever. All the open mics and the support from NSAI and SGA has been incredible.
Jenna - How often do you write and who are your strongest musical influences?
Brooke - I write every day. I take notes all day long in my phone which has a keyboard fortunately for me. Toby Keith, Reba, and Randy Travis are three of my main influences. But actually, anyone that's country has influenced in some way.
Britta - We try to write as much as possible. Over the past year Georgia has become our writing haven. We have two Quarter horses on a property in GA and it has just made a great inspiration for us to write. I always carry a notebook with me and am constantly jotting down ideas. Also, I have an ipod recorder in my purse and sing little melodies. So writing for us is constantly on our minds. As far as influences go it's like Brooke said, anyone who's country has influenced us. I honestly could go on and on, but some of my main influences are Loretta Lynn, Garth Brooks, and other duos like The Judds, Brooks & Dunn, and Montgomery Gentry.
Jenna - How important are workshops and organizations such as NSAI, ASCAP, and BMI to a songwriter just starting out in Nashville?
Brooke & Britta - We can't even begin to tell you how much we love NSAI and SGA! Both organizations have taken our writing to a whole other playing field. We recently attended a Song Camp and Songpossium with NSAI and the song critiques, the lectures, and all the information was just wonderful. NSAI is so supportive of songwriters and really helps you better yourself. SGA is also a blessing. The people we met through SGA were so talented and shared so much knowledge with us that we truly feel blessed to have both these organizations. We highly recommend any song writer to join those.
Jenna - Do you have any advice for out of town songwriters living outside of TN?
Brooke - NSAI has meetings in your state, so you can look up on their website to find a local chapter. If you can arrange to come in to visit Nashville that's really great. Join NSAI and SGA and you can have your songs critiqued long distance. Keep writing!
Britta - What's really cool about coming into Nashville is you have a support group. Everyone understands where you're coming from. Its really helpful to come to one of the seminars that NSAI or SGA put on annually because you'll get a lot more support and knowledge. But if you can't arrange it that's okay. They have different local chapters in many of the states and you also can submit your stuff for critique.
Jenna - Do you have any upcoming shows or performances we should know about?
Brooke & Britta - Currently, we�re focusing on writing and re-writing. We practice four hours a day on the guitar so the guitar is very important to us. Most Mondays you�ll find us at The Bluebird- sometimes performing sometimes listening. We�re headed back to our home state, Florida, in the spring to sing some national anthems at The Bright House Networks Field for the major league baseball spring training games. We�re excited about that.
Jenna Love is a songwriter in Findlay, Ohio. www.myspace.com/JennaLoveguitarist — www.JennLove.com

This is an interview with Ed Salamon regarding Country Radio Seminar (March 5-7) and why upcoming artists should attend the event. REGISTER TODAY . Attending the entire event is the best way to get to know the radio people that you will be wanting to visit next year or down the road – attending the seminars to learn what radio people go through, current topics in their industry and learn from other artists – Be There!

CRB - 615.327.4487 - ed_salamon@crb.org CALL and register TODAY – tell them you heard about it from Doak and you read the interview – OK?

Ed Salamon has been called "Country Radio's Cheerleader" by Billboard Magazine. From 1975 through 1981 he programmed the most listened to Country radio station of all time; WHN, New York. In 1981 he became partners with Dick Clark and others to start a radio network. After a series of acquisitions and mergers, Ed became President/Programming of the then largest radio network, Westwood One. On all of these networks, Ed always provided national radio opportunities for Country music via daily and weekly shows, specials and live concert broadcasts. After more than twenty years as head of Programming for a major radio network, Ed moved to Nashville in 2002 to be Executive Director of the Country Radio Broadcasters, for which he had been a volunteer Board member beginning in the mid 70s. Ed was inducted into the Country Radio Hall of Fame in 2006.

Doak - Tell me Ed - what is CRS and what is the connection with the artists in Nashville?

Ed- The Country Radio Seminar is presented by Country Radio Broadcasters, Inc., a 501c(3) non-profit organization. CRS brings together radio attendees from all over the country together with Country music professionals here in Nashville. It's a great opportunity for everyone to learn from each other. No other music format has anything of comparable scope. In addition to the learning and networking opportunities, CRS has developed into "market week" for Country music, providing artists of all levels opportunities to showcase for radio and the music industry. It's a lot of fun, too.

Doak - IF I was an upcoming artist in Nashville, why would I want to attend the entire CRS event?

Ed -Those of us in Country radio and Country music must continually keep learning about our ever changing business. At any point during the three day event, an artist will find information and networking opportunities that will help them grow their career. Ironically, the biggest complaint we get about the CRS agenda is "I couldn't do everything I wanted to because there was so much going on". Many attendees take time off from their jobs and attend at their own expense because they consider CRS essential for their personal career development.

Doak - What could I learn about radio and the music business that could help me as an artist by attending the full 3 days and nights of CRS?

Ed -Despite new avenues for the exposure of music, radio is still the primary source for consumers to discover Country music. If you are an artist, a songwriter, a producer or anyone else looking to radio to play your music, it is critical for you to understand as much about the medium as possible. Likewise, it is helpful for those in radio to understand the artists' point of view. Most of us realize that today's most successful Country artists are among the smartest about the business aspects of their career, especially marketing.

Doak - are there specific seminars and showcase that an artist should attend at CRS?

Ed -To be redundant, there is always a panel or networking opportunity from which an artist can benefit. However, I would especially advise an artist to attend Wednesday's "The Country Format Through The PPM Lens". Radio will soon be measured by different methodology and that is likely to affect radio programming. Artists can be in the room when Programmers are discussing how PPM may change how they program music. On Thursday the Research 101 Panel will debunk some of the ridiculous rumors that circulate about how radio chooses it music. Artists don't have to depend on second hand stories, but can hear from the radio programmers themselves. On Friday, "Investing In The Future; How Radio And Records Can Break An Act" would be a great resource for an artist, especially one who is looking to break through. CRS is a great way for an artist, writer, producer or manager to get inside information that will put him ahead of his contemporaries.

Ed -CRS-39 is Wednesday March 5 through Friday March 7 at the Nashville Convention Center. Register at www.crb.org, or by calling the CRB office at 615-327-4487. The latest information about the convention is always posted on the website, but all you readers should feel free to call CRB with any questions they have.

Doak - any other CRS comments and important activities that we should know about?

Ed- Our event may be called the Country RADIO Seminar, but the CRB Board and the CRS-39 Agenda Committee consist equally of radio and music industry volunteers. They believe that through "growth through sharing", we can create better opportunities for the entire Country industry. Since the CRS started in 1969, the number of Country radio stations in America has grown from about 600 to over 2,000, more than any other format. Once Country was a regional format and today there are Country stations in all parts of America. This provides a huge platform for the songs, artists and productions created by the Country music industry. I hope many of your readers take advantage of the event that brings music and radio together here in Nashville.

John Braheny is a music industry consultant and mentor/coach for performers and songwriters. He and Lynn Chandler co-founded the legendary Los Angeles Songwriters Showcase (LASS), a national non-profit service organization for songwriters, from 1971 until joining forces with the Songwriters Guild of America in 1999. In addition to teaching at several conferences and organizations throughout the US and Canada, he has conducted 55 interviews with hit songwriters and producers for United Airlines In—flight (audio) Entertainment. For more information, visit his Web site www.johnbraheny.com .

The first two editions of “The Craft and Business of Songwriting” are credited to helping many hit songwriters including Jon Ims (She’s in Love with the Boy) achieve their songwriting skills. Jon Ims says, “Braheny’s Craft and Business of Songwriting (first edition) helped me organize my talent and motivated me to do something with it. The book was a godsend for someone like me living outside of the music business inner circle.

Diane Warren says on the back of the book, “The Craft and Business of Songwriting” offers practical street – level look at today’s world of songwriting. It’s essential reading for anyone contemplating a career as a professional songwriter, Read and Learn. Dianne Warren was a member of John’s LASS organization in the 70’s.

“The Craft and Business of Songwriting 3rd Edition” by John Braheny hit the bookstores October 2006.

As you know, Doak, the landscape for songwriters and writer/artists has changed pretty dramatically since my 02 edition. Technological advances and the creation of more services to support indie artists have enhanced their efforts to be entrepreneurs. More opportunities are available in film/TV, video games etc., and I wanted to expand the info writers need to deal with that fast growing market. I wanted them to know how to approach music libraries, song-placement companies and music publishers who specialize in audio-visual music. I think it’s really important that writers know what takes place on the other side of the desk with those companies to be able to approach them professionally and effectively rather than just shotgunning their CDs out there hoping somebody will discover their songs.

Doak - When you look back – I believe the first book came out almost 20 years ago – what are the most dramatic changes you’ve seen for songwriters – any in the craft and what ones on the biz side really stand out to you?

The first edition came out in 1988. CDs were six years old and gaining fast on cassettes but cassettes were the way writers pitched their songs. Some of the major artists then were Steve Winwood, Guns ‘n Roses, George Michael, Bon Jovi, U2 and Anita Baker, Whitney Houston and INXS. In country there were George Strait, Dwight Yoacam, Keith Whitley, Rosanne Cash, Oak Ridge Boys, Alabama, Reba, The Judds. Hip Hop and Rap were well –established by then with NWA, Public Enemy, Run DMC among others and the big topic of discussion was sampling and whether rap’s explicit language would corrupt kids. Disaffected grown-up music fans who were raised on pop and rock were starting to gravitate to country and so were a lot of pop writers who started moving to Nashville in hopes of actually making a living writing “real” songs. I could go on and on about that but, for me, I believe that all popular music styles are valid though I saw Hip-Hop as primarily a producer's medium (still is) and I focused more on traditional songwriting. I came to realize later that the most successful Hip-Hop uses relatively the same kinds of structures as pop hits though there was more creative latitude because the writer/producers were in control. With the advent of cheap home multi-track recording more and more writers were also becoming producers, at least for creating their own demos.

When digital recording come in, it really escalated and I needed to reflect that transformation in the 2002 edition. The Digital Audio Workstation was probably the biggest tech innovation that changed the way writers, especially pop and Hip-Hop writers, could work. They could lay down tracks first and start to create and control how they wanted the song to sound (though sampled guitars still sound like crap).

Another factor on the creative side is that, since people can download individual tracks now, it’s more important than ever that writers come up with better songs. It used to be that publishers and record companies provided more of a filter before the indie DIY revolution but now too many writers just write songs and record them without any song feedback so there’s a lot of terrible stuff out there along with the good stuff. On the other hand, more of my consulting business is about helping writers improve and chose their best songs. So I can’t complain too much.

On the business side, once everybody had CD players, CDs replaced cassettes as the medium for pitching and with the Internet it’s gone to sending audio files online, though CDs are still hanging in there. The Internet also changed the way licensing was done and provided lots of new income streams and media – like music for video games and cell-phone ringtones you can buy online. Music for audio-visual use is exploding as more writer/artists/bands control both their songs and master recordings. Writers can produce broadcast quality recordings and relatively inexpensive high-definition video cameras are within reach of teens. Now we just have to teach them to license the music for their videos before they upload it to YouTube. The legal system and copyright law are still trying to catch up with the changes that all these tech advances have brought, so in the new edition I get into the new digital royalties available to writers and artists.

Info on how to get to music supervisors for film/TV and a Work For Hire Agreement. A lot of writers aren’t aware that when they do demos they need to have Work For Hire agreements signed by their musicians and singers before they can claim to own the master recordings. I included a list of all the ways music is used in film/TV and the codes used on cue sheets to designate those uses. I also include a sample cue sheet and a list of the best tip sheets both pros and amateurs use to find out about projects they can pitch to. There’s a lot more but those are just a few that I didn’t have in the last edition.

Lots of other musical arenas are expanded in the book with web resources and interviews - children’s music, musical theatre, getting a record deal, why you may not want a record deal, etc.

Doak - I noticed that you’ve always included contributions by other experts in your book. Have you continued that in your new edition?

Absolutely. Obviously I’m not an expert on everything I feel writers need to know about. But I have made a point of finding out where to get that information. I feel very strongly about giving writers access to the best info. I just happen to know people who are experts in fields I’m not as experienced with or, even if I am, there are those who can explain it better. For example, David Cat Cohen is a wonderful pop music teacher and he’s always written the chapter on composing music so he updated that section and his examples. I also recommended other great books that can take readers a lot deeper than I could go within the scope of my book. Another example is that I asked Jeannie Novak to write a piece on the concepts involved in writing music for video games. I’d never seen that in other general songwriting books and Jeannie has written books on the topic. I asked Berklee lyric prof, Pat Pattison, to write a piece on what he calls the “No” Free Zone after telling me about his first collaboration in Nashville. Great stuff! Jon Ims wrote a breakdown of the techniques he used in writing “She’s In Love With The Boy” that’s a great lesson in re-writing all by itself. I used the critique sheet I developed for TAXI as a writer’s checklist for their songs by explaining all the points on the list. Lots of stuff like that.

Doak - What part of the book did you expand the most?

The chapter On Marketing Yourself and Your Songs. I came up with a lot more lists of services and websites and added sections on Blogging and Podcasting among other things as well as some legal opinions on Podcasting.

Doak - Were there other topics you wanted to add but couldn’t?

Yeah. One of the frustrating things is that there are new legal developments happening all the time regarding music licensing. There’s stuff that’s still being worked out, contested, fought about and it’ll still be in process after this goes to press. So the best I could do was say “Watch these websites (including johnbraheny.com) for further developments. Actually that’s one of the things I’ve always found fascinating about the business. Just when you think you know something – it changes. So it keeps me on my toes – but I like that.

Are you kidding? It took me about 9 months to birth this baby and I was still working on it while I was on the road last May and June and I’m finally back to not having to tell my consult clients they’ll have to wait a little longer for their critiques and consults. No, I’m not looking forward to it but I’m always in the info-freak mode so I’ll keep collecting info anyway. When it gets to the place where I think too much of the info in this edition is obsolete, I’ll do a fourth edition.

Doak – Thanks John, your books have certainly been a blessing to me. I recommend songwriters read your book FIRST! I tell every songwriter I meet to read your book!

Steve Williams and Thom Shepherd co-wrote the #1 song, Redneck Yacht Club that went to the top of the charts for Craig Morgan. Below is an interview with Steve Williams.

Steve - Redneck Yacht Club was written in June 2003. Inspired by my wife Terri and I spending a lot of time out on Percy Priest Lake in Nashville. I 'd had the idea written down for about 6 months. I had told her about it. One day she said, who are you writing with today? When I told her Thom Shepherd she said, why don't you write that Redneck Yacht Club idea with him? I said yeah, he'd be great! Well I asked Thom, what about an idea called Redneck Yacht Club? He said, nah... but then we started spittin' out lines like take your Johnson, your Mercury or your Evinrude and fire it up, and before too long we said, nobody will probably cut this (pre Redneck Woman) but lets write it anyway!

Doak – What did your publisher’s think of the song and did you have to re-write the song?

Steve - We made a work tape and played it for Thom’s (Shepherd) publishers Mosaic. Our original second verse said, Bermudas, black socks and a tank top tan, he popped his first top at ten am that's Bob, with the hairy back. He's checkin' out the girls on the upper deck rubbin' in the 15 spf it's hot, he's bound to have a heart attack... Well they suggested we change the hairy back thing. We struggled to come up with a replacement line up until the time we demoed the song. We made Bob the president. We pitched the song around town.

Doak – How did the song get to Craig Morgan? What kind of timeline did it take for the song to get heard and then on the radio?

Steve - I was playing with Sherrie' Austin (BBR records)at the time. The label had booked a Radio tour for label mates Craig and Sherrie' for January and February 2004. We toured the east and west coasts and we all hopped on Craig’s bus. Craig and Phil Odonell, his producer /guitarist were listening to songs for his new record. I put about 5 songs on a CD and he liked 3 of them. Only one stuck! The label called soon after to put it on hold. I believe they cut the song in September 2004 and as we all know the first single was “That's what I love about Sunday”. Needless to say we would wait a long time before we found out our song, Red Neck Yacht Club was going to be a single.

Doak – What have you heard from people about the song and what did you do when you heard the song on the radio?

Steve - We've had so many people come up and say, that's our song, we sing it every weekend! Did you write that about party cove at the Lake of the Ozarks, or Lake Lanier? Everyone who's ever boated before connects with it. Thom Shepherd, my co-writer has had songs on the radio before (Riding with Private Malone #1 for David Ball) but this is my 1st single and my wife and I have been acting like little kids all this last summer. We'd get in the car and turn on the radio and yell there it is! Turn it up!

Doak - Do you have merchandise for Red Neck Yacht Club and where is it available?

We have Redneck Yacht Club merchandise available at www.redneckyachtclub.com . We feel very blessed and it's been a wild ride.

Doak Turner is a songwriter living in Nashville. He owns the www.nashvillemuse.com site and publishes the weekly Nashville Muse, which is sent to 10,000+ songwriters and music industry pros as well as promotion and production of songwriting seminars.

Robert Lee Castleman is a Grammy winning songwriter living in Nashville , TN. He has had (7) cuts with Alison Krauss, including “The Lucky One” which won a Grammy for “Best Country Song”, Four songs on Alison's new CD, (Lonely Runs Both Ways) a title track on a Chet Atkins album and a cut on an Alan Jackson CD.

Doak – Tell me about writing your great song, “The Lucky One” that was recorded by Alison Krauss.

RL- I was at the National Guitar Workshop in 1984, David Smolover's guitar camp in Connecticut , They study all styles of guitar playing. That number is

1-800-234-NGSW. I wrote that song at that particular workshop. A friend of mine, Buck Brown did a guitar/vocal demo of the song. We even did a live version of the song at a club that he recorded. When I was touring with Alison Krauss years later, the summer of 2000, Buck had moved to Washington , DC . I called him and told him we were going to be playing Wolf Trap in Vienna , Virginia . He stopped by and handed me a cassette of what he considered great old RL songs. We were listening to the cassette on the tour bus. When it came to the song “The Lucky One” Alison asked, “What is that”? She recorded it on her album "New Favorite" and changed it to 2^nd person. It was written in first person.

Doak – You had the song, “Forget About It” a couple years earlier that she had recorded. Tell me about that song.

RL – It was the title track to a previous album with Alison. I wrote “Forget About It” around 1985, maybe even earlier.

RL- Alison’s husband had a surprise birthday party for her around 1999. That was the first time I had ever met her. Of course at the party, they stuck a guitar in my hand and that was one of the songs that I sang that night. Alison said she had to record that song! She also recorded ‘Let Me Touch you for a While”.

RL – That song was also written in the 80’s. Someone even had a live recording of it when I recorded it at the famed “The Bitter End” in New York City back in the 80’s. That song was also on the cassette I mentioned previously that Buck brought to me in Virginia .

RL – Yes- I met Pat Bergeson in Connecticut at the Guitar Workshop back in 1984-85 and we became good friends. He said that we should put together a band and play The Bitter End and other clubs in New York City . We did that as “The Checkered Past Band. Chet Atkins had come to the Guitar workshop with his friend John Knowles, who used to transcribe for Chet. John works for the Country Music Hall of Fame and is probably one of my all time favorite guitar players. I had a previous connection with Chet through and album that he had produced for Homer and Jethro on RCA years prior called "Songs My Mother Never Sang". Listening to Chet records was the inspiration for me to fingerpick a guitar. I brought that album up, and since Jethro was Chet's brother-in-law we hit it off right away. I gave him a copy of a demo tape that I had made and Chet passed it on to his manager. His manager and I got hooked up and moved to Nashville in 1989. After I was here for a while, Chet recorded an instrumental song of mine called "Sneakin' Around" that was the title track of the album, the first cut I ever had. Chet and Jerry Reed did the song on the album. Pat and I made the original demo of "Sneakin' Around" and after Chet heard it he wanted to meet Pat. He loved Pat's playing so much he asked him to play on the record. Pat ended up moving to town a little later. To make a long story short. He knew Alison's brother, Victor, who hooked him up with, not only Lyle Lovett but Alison as well.. Pat married Alison, then came the birthday party and the rest is history.

Doak – You had those songs that were 20 years old and Alison cut them. Now she has a new CD (Lonely Runs Both Ways) and what has happened for you on her new CD?

RL – She recorded "Restless" the first single off the new CD. Another song called "Gravity" that I wrote is on the CD. I wrote that song in 90 or 91. A cut off my record called "Crazy as Me" which was my title track, and then a funny thing happened on another song. She called me from LA and says, RL, I got this idea for a song that I want you to write. I said I do not normally do things that way, but I'll take a whack at it. She said the title is "It Doesn't Have To Be This Way" It is about two people that do not have a relationship that are breaking up. Of course I asked what happened and how does that work? I was sitting at the house one morning about six, picked up a guitar and came up with the song. I wrote it in about maybe twenty minutes. Made a guitar /vocal demo and called to play it for her on the phone. She said she loved the song. She recorded that song on the album for a total of four cuts on the latest Alison Krauss CD! (Lonely Runs Both Ways) I went from one cut on the Allison CD (Forget About It) to two cuts on the next (New Favorite) to now four songs on the current album. The next thing is for her to do a complete record of Robert Lee Castleman songs (Laughter)! That CD would be great!

Doak – You have written these songs, you played them. How did you end up pitching these songs to her?

RL - "Restless" was on a CD that I gave her along with a bunch of other songs to see if there was anything that she liked. She called me up and said she had to have “Restless” and Gravity”.

RL – Absolutely – that goes back to the night at her birthday party mentioned previously. I played for the crowd for about 45 minutes to an hour with her husband Pat. She called Ken Irwin the next day at Rounder Records and told him that he had to make a CD with me. That happened real quickly.

RL – We did about thirty dates that I opened for her. Alison and I and a driver and a nanny to watch her little boy were on one bus. Another bus had the band and a truck for the crew. It's the only Bluegrass band I know of with two busses. It was a barrel of laughs.

Doak – Can you tell me about writing a song or two, starting with “The Lucky One”

RL – The Lucky One----It's about a guy that has a positive outlook on life. He sees the glass half full rather than half empty. “I’m the lucky one so I've been told, free as the wind blowing down the road. Loved by many, hated by none you'd say I was lucky if you knew what I’d done”. If not me, he's one who has a checkered past and has been very lucky to have survived it. It was an honor to be nominated but that sucker won the Grammy and I'm keeping it. Thank You…. I am---- the lucky one.

RL- I was a OTR – Over The Road – Long Hall Trucker better known as a truck driver. I started driving in 1995 to put food on the table. It has taken me 50 some years to become an over night success as well as receive any accolades in this business and all songwriters need to have a job to keep them going until success hits. I was sitting in Severville , TN with a load of scrap metal that I was getting ready to unload. The cell phone rang and it was Alison. She was so excited, telling me that my song was nominated for a Grammy. Here I am in dirty, filthy clothes, been up all night driving from the coast in Alabama to get to Severville. I had been up about 20 hours when she told me I got nominated for a Grammy for “Best Country Song of the Year”. I near soiled myself (Laughter).

Doak – Did you ever have any other artists call you when you were on the road?

RL – Alan Jackson called me one day to tell me he wanted to record a couple of songs. He cut “Stay Here” and also “Kind of like a Rainbow” He only recorded the song, “Stay Here” on his “When Somebody Loves You” CD.

RL – I have a famous quote? That's good to know--Peter Cooper from The Tennessean asked me what I was going to do with the Grammy Award. I told him that it would look good on the hood of my 18 Wheeler!

RL – Restless - It's an honest song that came at a time of confusion in my life. I was in jail in Martinsburg , WV . I had been arrested for drunk driving after attempting (in vain I might add) to drown the many sorrows one is forced to deal with after ones heart lay broken. I had successfully consumed three times my weight in Wild Turkey (water back) and for this accomplishment spent a wonderfully somber evening in jail. My first wife to be decided that she did not want to be my first wife which set into motion a chain of events that later left me alone in a cell at "lights out". The lyric, “Honey I know that you’ve been alone some, why don’t you phone some, ‘cause I love you” came from that night in jail as well as "I been put down, pushed around, apprehended and led down town and I can't help it if I'm full of fight 'cause I'm Restless tonight…. It was the first time that I came up with a lyric without a guitar.

I wrote the lyric for a simple musical piece and added it later. I did a demo in Hagerstown , MD and that is what Alison heard on a CD. That song was written around 1981.

RL- There are a lot of songs that people have kept over the years. I have forgotten about many of them and maybe someday someone will bring an old tape to me of way back then. That is the way “The Lucky One” was heard! I do not have a system. If I write a song that is a hit at my house for however long it takes me to wear it out, I just keep the tape around the house. I give it the whistle test. If the melody sticks in your head that's a good thing. I remember hanging with Chet Atkins one night in Nashville . We were at “The Cockeyed Camel” a bar out Highway 100 around Bell Meade. We were walking out halfway during a guy’s show that night and Chet asked what I thought of the guy’s songs. I said that the music was so complicated that I could not remember any of it. Chet said, “Well as long as he keeps doing that I won’t go out of business” (laughter).

RL – To always be tenacious, never give up chasing your dream. It is a great job if you can make a living at it. Reflect the times and places that you've been universally. That, in itself, is hard to get away with at times. I'll never write a song about sailing on a battleship, because I do not have any experience with that particular thing. Einstein said "Make things as simple as possible, but never simpler." These are great words to live by and can also be applied to songwriting. One must also remember that simplicity is the hardest thing to achieve. Every line should be as strong as the one before and after. The DJ playing the song on the radio cannot play the song back to explain it to the listener. You've only got three minutes to get your point across. (And most of all.) Never be current. Timeless classics become timeless for that very reason. If I write a song that totally sucks air but has one great line I'll keep that line for another song. Twenty bad songs may have the elements to write one great song. The trick is to write a song that doesn’t say anything, yet says everything. To have someone say “How did you know that I feel like that?" let's you know that your song is universal.

I hate direct things in songs. If you notice, Alison very seldom cuts songs that talk about a specific time or events or items. She does not say the name of a town or a truck or specific things. It has to be timeless. Her songs could be written today or in the 20’s. She loves to be obscure, not current. She will not talk about computers, caller ID’s, trucks, or things that are modern, so to speak – And last but not least - Never think your songs are better than what they really are. This will help to make you very critical of your own work and therefore a better tunesmith. That's my opinion - and it should be yours'……..

Doak – When you are writing songs, do you ever write and say it is an Alison song?

RL – Not at all - There are songs that I think she will like but when I have or develop an idea I do my best to write what "I" think is a great song. That's it. All I ever set out to do is write a great song. If someone else thinks it's a great song as well - that's cool and thank you so much. But my only concern at conception is to please myself. As for Alison, I know her voice so well that I can put her voice to it and hear her singing it in my head. But this does not necessarily mean she will sing it on a record. That's up to her of course. I know her phrasing, what she likes and does not like but that is not as important to me as what "I" like. She likes what I do so much that she will listen to whatever I send her. If she thinks it sux she'll be kind and say "That interesting" but I can tell that she's pointing and laughing when a complete stranger shows up at my door to throw a banana crème pie in my face along with a note that says "R.L. - You've completely lost it and you'll never get it back again. But she will listen. Which is great.

Doak – RL thanks a lot for your time. I know you probably better get back to your home studio and get to work on Alison’s next CD, which will contain all songs written by YOU (laughter)!

Writing Up: Interview With Songwriter Joe Leathers
Newly Signed to Curb Music Publishing - Nashville

We are in a local coffee shop in Hillsboro Village in Nashville , TN , 8:30 on a Friday morning, summer of 2003.

[Doak Turner] Joe, you have a 10 AM co-writing appointment this morning ¡V right?

Joe Leathers I sure do, as I usually start with a 10 AM co-writing appointment. I'm writing with one of my songwriting hero's, Walt Wilkins ¡V I can't wait!

[Doak Turner] Joe, please tell us about your songwriting journey and getting you first publishing deal with Curb Music publishing.

Joe Leathers It was about seven or eight years ago when I started pitching songs to publishers, A&R reps and anyone that would let me in for an appointment. I played out one or two nights a week in Nashville . I decided that although Nashville and Memphis, Tennessee, are 200 miles apart, they are about 1,000 years apart for the music scenes. I played in several bands in Memphis and the local music scene as a side gig as a guitar player in bands. I cut a couple records with Nashville producer named Jack Holder. Jack has been an ¡§A List¡¨ guitar player in Nashville , played on Johnny Lang and Tracy Chapman's records and I really respect him. He has taught me a lot about songwriting and the music business.

One day I played him a couple songs and he asked if I had ever pitched some of the songs. I told him no, and he said he has some friends in Nashville , and that I need to go and see them. We laughed about it, and I saw him about a month later. He asked if I had made any of those calls, and I said no. He laughed at me and told me that I could do it (write songs in Nashville ).

Players in Nashville (studio and touring musician's) aren't usually real free with compliments like he was giving, as they are around the top talent all of the time. I thought at first he was just being a nice guy, but he was serious. He was really interested in what I was doing.

Joe Leathers I started making trips to Nashville , pitching songs and learned a lot during that time. I learned a lot from the feedback that I got from the publishers and producers who heard my songs. I started developing co-writers through playing out at nights for about six years. Last summer, I cut a couple demos over at a local studio, County Q. I submitted the songs to my contacts at Curb Publishing, and their eyebrows raised a little bit. I kept pitching songs all last winter, and around Thanksgiving, they offered me a publishing deal. It took about six months to get the contract completed and we signed the agreement a couple months ago, in early May.

[Doak Turner] You developed several relationships over the years in Nashville . How did those relationships during that particular time result in co-writers?

Joe Leathers It was a lot of personal relationships with other songwriters in town. A publisher would say, ¡§I like the way you think, why don't you go see my friend over at Combustion Music Publishing, or my friend at Almo Irving Publishing.¡¨ Sometimes those appointments would work out, and sometimes they wouldn't. But every time I booked an appointment, I would be there on time for the meeting. You have to be a pro, even if you are a rookie. I would always confirm the appointment in advance of the day of the appointment. I always followed up with a thank-you note. I would call a day or two in advance to re-confirm the appointment. It was just picking up a phone and asking if I could come and play a couple of songs. A lot of people said yes. I wasn't afraid of that process.

Joe Leathers I remember I had a five-song demo that was pretty good production quality, so I felt good about the songs. Until you sit in a pitch meeting, you just do not know what you have, even though you think it is good. The best songwriters in the world are right here in Nashville . These people that you are pitching to hear the best songs written every day. The publisher listened to three entire songs, as opposed to what I have heard that they listen to about ten seconds of a song and move on to the next one. I just leaned back in a chair, stared at the ceiling fan, there was silence in the room, and I just wanted to hear him say something, because the silence was killing me. He gave me the obligatory. ¡§That is pretty good and I think one day you can become a songwriter, bring me something else in a month.¡¨ I took that as next week, and I remember thinking, this guy said I could be a pretty good songwriter! It was a pretty positive meeting, as I look for the good part of everything. I decided THEN, I was going to be a songwriter; I am not going to look back and wonder if I could have done it!

Joe Leathers I got serious, organized and committed myself to the craft ¡K I was told by someone to write every day, even if it is one line, three chords and a little melody, do SOMETHING every day, or you are going backwards. Once you get out of that process, your creativity can wane a little bit. That is what I did, either early in the morning or late at night, middle of the day, sometime I would come up with a line or two, the process never stops.

[Doak Turner] You developed a songwriter's antenna ¡V always looking out for song ideas?

Joe Leathers I decided that the ideas were the things for me. If you get a co-writer, you can write a song every day, but the idea or the spin on the idea is the key. I try to always be alert and aware to look for that next idea, overhearing a conversation and hearing a line, and knowing that is pretty cool and will be in a song I am going to write. Someone told me that if everyone is looking at the tree, that I need to be looking at the shade. Most people miss the shade! There is a book called ¡§Learning How To See¡¨ by Annie Dillard. She talks about [how] most people walk through life looking at the big stuff, and miss the little things that make life great. I think that is pretty cool stimulus for being a songwriter. A painter will paint things like a shadow that most people do not see, so as songwriters, we have to look from a different angle.

Joe Leathers I am aware of my surroundings. I will get in my car and go for a drive or watch people, and I read all the time. I go to as many songwriter rounds as I can while in Nashville . I keep the songwriting process in front of me.

[Doak Turner] It took you six years to get your first publishing deal. What kept you going when you realized that it has been three, and four and five years, and I still do not have a publishing deal?

Joe Leathers Everyone tells you that you are not going to get a deal. Then you have the group of songwriters that are jaded with their deal and they haven't gotten cuts. If you listen to those people, it will turn you around and send you home. I have always had the attitude that if your songs are good enough, for the most part, through all the politics, if the song is a hit, it is going to get cut. Many songwriters that I have spent time with, in my opinion, have a bad attitude. Maybe they have not had a cut in five or six years ¡K or for whatever reason they are mad at the whole industry. I decided that I was not going to listen to talk like that, and know that if my songs have wings, they are going to fly. I kept trying to improve and would not settle for just a good song.

We can write a good song anytime, but I want to write the ones that just blow your hair back. What kept me going were the people that told me I could not do it, and laughed when they heard I was going to pitch songs in Nashville . These were people involved in the music business, people I have known for a long time. They fired me up by telling me I would fail. On the other hand, I also had a couple friends that were constantly encouraging me. I decided after that first pitch meeting that I could be a songwriter, and that I would never quit; it is just a matter of time before I have success as a songwriter.

Joe Leathers It is intimidating because the songwriters at Curb Music Publishing are all just incredible, top to bottom. They are all special in their own way. I have been fortunate to write with several of the songwriters at Curb. I am gaining confidence, and whatever you do in life, you have to wake up in the morning and think to yourself. ¡§I'M THE MAN¡¨ or ¡§I'M THE WOMAN. I am going to go out today and will outwork everybody, I have the brain and work ethic for what I am doing in life.¡¨

You ask yourself, ¡§What is going to stop me?¡¨ The only thing that is going to stop me is me, and I will not allow that to happen. I feel I am gaining confidence, and can hardly stand it. The difference is that I had a seven year job interview, and now I want to make the people that bet on me at Curb know they were right in signing me to the publishing deal. I want to be the songwriter that they made the correct decision to have on their staff of songwriters.

Joe Leathers It has been friendships that I have developed with other songwriters that have helped me to be able to write with other signed songwriters. I wrote yesterday with Danni Carroll, and she is amazing, She is going to be a star in the future. I met her at the Hall of Fame Lounge playing a songwriters round. She had just moved here from San Diego and it was her first night in town. We met and stayed in contact, and she recently signed to Famous Music. We stayed in touch all along our journey, and are now co-writing.

I also write with Chuck Floyd and Skip Black. I met them both at a Barbara Cloyd weekend in Marietta Georgia . We have sot of become a band of brothers, it is really cool when you are totally on the same page with another songwriter. The people at Curb are really great at setting me up with co-writes. They are good at paring me with people that will be good co-writers for me. You want to put people that are weak in melody with strong melody writers, and vice-versa.

[Doak Turner] Let's talk mistakes on your journey. Did you make any or have you seen others make mistakes as a songwriter?

Joe Leathers I am sure I have made mistakes, but I do not dwell on them. I learn my lesson and move on. I have tried to listen to other songwriters and learn the UNWRITTEN rules. That was one of the first things that I asked the people at Curb.

Joe Leathers Write hard, be credible and don't put your foot in your mouth. Be honest and have integrity. It is a very small town, and be a professional. It is basic business. For example, if you have a co-write set-up, then show up. That sounds pretty simple, but I have had a couple songwriters no-show. I had this happen and wonder how someone could not show up for a co-writing appointment. If you do not want to write, do not make the appointment in the first place! What are you from the first time that you no-show? You are the songwriter that is a no-show. There is no excuse not to call someone and tell him or her you are not going to be at the co-writing session. Things pop up at the last minute, and I understand that, but pick-up the phone and call to re-schedule. The biggest mistake that I see, is people that self-destruct because of their own attitude. Your mouth gets you in trouble in this town more that anything. Keep your head down so that you do not get shot, and write every day.

Joe Leathers Find a core group of people that believe in you and write everyday. The publishing deal provides you with access to everything in the industry that we need as a songwriter ¡V access to other songwriters, the ability to get songs heard. When the publisher hears a song they believe in, they are going to go and grab that eight hundred pound guerilla and get him to put his shoulder behind it and push your song! I would not be able to do that on my own, but if you have three songpluggers out there every day pitching your songs, the chances go way up to get a cut. The songwriter does want the publishing deal.

Joe Leathers I did that early on with a publisher in Memphis . One day I was in a meeting with Scott Gunter of Almo Irving Music. He has been a tremendous asset and resource for me. He is a great guy. Scott hooked me up with a friend of hi,; Chris Olgelsby, and they have a songwriter's night that they will host at BMG or Almo Irving. I went to that event a couple times and we were in a conversation regarding single song contracts. I had been offered a single song contract by another publisher in Nashville and was unsure of what to do about it. I asked Scott what he thought about it. He said he would never offer a single song contract, as that is chicken. If the song is good enough to be offered on a single song contract, you are a good enough songwriter to be signed by a publisher. That is a broad statement, but I think he is right. Why sell yourself short? I want to do this right. The one song that I had in Memphis with a publisher had expired, and I now own that song's publishing rights.

There is no telling how many songs within a word of each other that have been #1 songs, so when I have an idea and look at BMI or ASCAP for a song with a similar title, there are twenty-five of the same songs. I go ahead and write it anyway. You can talk yourself right out of great song or talk yourself right out of the songwriting business. If you think too much of whether the song has been written too many times, or too many cliches, you can talk yourself right out of a great song. I know songwriters that have had a big cut, but then they listen to so much advice they cannot write a word without analyzing it into the dust. Then, they end up with twenty-five half written songs.

People will tell you that it is too down the middle, it is not out there enough, it is this or that, so they are afraid to write songs! It is crazy and you do not want to co-write with that person, unless you can help bring them out of the funk. Listen to those people that know the industry and take the advice that you feel is valid, do not let the negatives slow you down.

[Doak Turner] How has NSAI and Memphis Songwriters helped your songwriting career?

Joe Leathers NSAI is a great resource. They have writer's rooms, and they are very supportive and can help with the education for songwriters. They do not shop you to publishers. They are in the business of educating songwriters and are fantastic with that process. They have done several great things on the legislative issues for songwriters, and that is another strong point of NSAI.

The Memphis Songwriters is a totally different organization. In Nashville , everyone is trying to write the next cut and #1. In Memphis , it is more of an aspiring artist, with most of the members trying for the artist deal in that association. They are not going to move to Nashville , and they do not have access to the publishers to play their song. They are not going to drive back and forth to Nashville . I have driven to Nashville (which is two hundred miles each way) for lunch and turned around and drove right back home to Memphis . Someone has called me at eight-o-clock and asked if I could write today, and I replied that I would be in Nashville at one-o-clock to write a song. The people that I have talked to in Memphis are not going to do things like that to make it in the songwriting business.

The Memphis Songwriters do writers nights, have regular meetings, had a great guitar seminar with the famous guitar player and guitar instructor, (Box Tops guitar player) Gary Talley, last month. It is a great organization and I try to attend every meeting when I am in Memphis . The whole networking process is great because you do not know when you are going to meet the next songwriter that you are going to click with on the journey.

[Doak Turner] Thank you, Joe Leathers, for your time and we look forward to hearing your great songs in the future!

We are at a local coffee shop in Bellevue , Tennessee . Keith Anderson just completed a 90-minute workout at a local gym, where he can be found there about any morning, Monday through Friday. Keith signed a publishing contract with EMI Publishing in 2001.

Keith Anderson I grew up in a little town in Northeast Oklahoma, in Miami , right on the border of Missouri and Arkansas . I started writing songs in late junior high or early high school. My brother was my musical influence, the first to start playing in our family. He taught himself guitar, and later taught me to play the guitar. He needed a drummer at the time, so I became a drummer and a harmony singer for my brother's band. Don Henley was one of my big heroes at the time.

After doing that gig, I taught myself some piano chords and started writing for fun, wouldn't even play any of those songs for anybody now, but that is when I got the buzz. Then I went to college at Oklahoma State , where I played on the college baseball team. I really started putting songs together during those years.

After getting my degree, I moved to Dallas and took a construction-engineering job. There is such a big country music scene in Dallas and I fell in love with the music again, quit my engineering job, and decided to go for it (the music business). I concentrated on my writing, put together a band, and started playing at a popular place called The Grapevine Opry. Lee Ann Rimes, Kix Brooks , Linda Davis had been a part of that venue in the past years.

[Doak Turner] Don Henley was one of your influences, who else influenced your songwriting?

Keith Anderson Billy Joel, Willie Nelson, and Merle Haggard, one of the best storytellers. I was an Eagles freak, as I loved harmonies. I was also a big fan of Huey Lewis, James Taylor, Jim Croce and other writers who were storytellers.

[Doak Turner] When you write now, is it all country or a couple other genres thrown in the mix, or do you just write from the heart and see what happens?

Keith Anderson I grew up with such a weird influence, because of where I grew up in Oklahoma . Steve and Cassie Gaines of Lynyrd Skynyrd fame were from my hometown, so we had a Southern rock influence. Skynyrd, Molly Hatchet, John Cougar Mellencamp, and I was an '80s rock freak. I got into the country scene about the time that Willie Nelson's Stardust, Red Headed Stranger and those kinds of albums started becoming popular. I also loved The Judds and Restless Heart after seeing them in concert. Restless Heart, because of how they combined the '80s rock with the country edge. I don't write a lot of stone country songs, even though my big cut was "Beer Run" (George Jones and Garth Brooks ). I have an acoustic drive like John Cougar Mellencamp, Restless Heart and Eagles sound.

My brother had Willie Nelson's Greatest Hits and we used to listen to it every day when he drove me to school, along with the other singers mentioned previously. The time in the car listening to those singers and songwriters had a big impact on my music.

[Doak Turner] Prior to moving to Nashville , did you participate in a songwriting workshop to learn the craft of songwriting?

Keith Anderson I didn't even know about those kinds of organizations. I was just so driven. When I decided to do it, I just set goals to listen, learn, and pay attention to songs and the business. I always loved English class in high school and college, the writing of stories and what you could do with pictures of words. I learned to take that, with my love of music and melody, to put the two of those together. I wish I had known about organizations like Nashville Songwriters Association International. I had to learn just by being intense and go, go, go. [A songwriting organization] sure could of cut off a lot of edges if I had known about NSAI.

Keith Anderson I was in Nashville , I knew record labels, hit songwriters names, which ones I needed to talk to and how the business works. I heard of a couple of the organizations that I needed to join. I was doing a show with John Rich [formerly of Lonestar and now of the new duo of Big and Rich]. Bart Herbison [Executive Director of NSAI] came to see John play that night. John talked about NSAI to the crowd that night. George Ducas was also in the round, who is a big songwriter, and also had a lot of good things to say about NSAI. I knew I needed to get involved with the organization and joined NSAI later that week.

Keith Anderson NSAI has been a good support system, and it has been fun for me to be involved in the workshops in my hometown area, the Tulsa , Oklahoma and the Joplin and Springfield , Missouri workshops. I try to do things with the workshops when I go home. NSAI has been great about getting me out to different places, like ¡§Music Row to Charlotte 2001,¡¨ and allowing me to play Tin Pan South week in Nashville .

Keith Anderson Barely, as I wrote mainly by myself. Brian Simpson, who I was in a band with in Dallas , became a great friend. I really did not know a lot about cowriting. We started writing songs together. He now writes for Encore Music, and wrote the Brad Martin song, ¡§Before I Knew Better.¡¨ He has a song on the Pinmonkey CD, a song on Chalee Tennison's CD, just got a Martina [McBride] cut, and is really on fire as a songwriter. Now we are both in Nashville , doing well.

Keith Anderson When you first move to Nashville , it can be a shot in the dark, as you are out meeting people, hearing songs you like, meeting people at the level where you are with your songwriting. You get together with other writers. Sometimes it clicks, and sometimes it doesn't. You do not know if you are going to be learning from them, or if they are going to be learning from you.

I was fortunate my first year, to start playing out with George Ducas and getting in with some really big name songwriters like George, Jeffrey Steele, Bob Dipiero, and Victoria Shaw. When you get in with those songwriters, it is like going to college, and that is one of the benefits of cowriting. I try to take advantage of those situations to learn and watch how they [the hit songwriters] put together a melody, how they fumble through writing the song.

Kim Williams is one of the best at that process. You get an idea, put it in a line of your song, saying, ¡§That is good enough.¡¨ Kim will find a different idea, a different rhyme scheme, and a different line to say the same thing and make it better. He is amazing.

[Doak Turner] Tell me about your first ¡§writing up¡¨ experience, meaning writing with a hit songwriter. How did it happen, were you intimidated, what were your thoughts?

Keith Anderson It was with George Ducas. I met George playing flag football on a previous trip to town. He is such a competitor and didn't know anything about me as an artist or writer. He told me to call him up when I moved to town so we could play sports together. I played softball with him in the spring and summer, where we developed a friendship together, and he asked to hear some of my songs. I have never asked a bigger writer to write with me. That is the worst thing you can do in this town. You just wait until the time is right, when they will ask you. George was so laid back. It was a really great, first time cowriting experience with a big-name songwriter. I still play that first song we wrote together in my band. And we still write every week. On the other hand, I have written with very famous songwriters and it just did not go very well. The chemistry just was not there during the cowriting session.

[Doak Turner] When you write up, do you always take the song ideas to the cowriting session?

Keith Anderson The newer writer is usually expected to bring the idea. Most of the great writers have written every idea at least twice. They are just looking for a new angle or some new way of looking at something. If you can bring them a totally new idea, they love it.

Keith Anderson I had a core group of ideas that I knew were really good for when I came to town. I never brought those to the table until I started writing up with those hit songwriters.

To this day, when I get a really good idea, I still save those ideas for those particular songwriters. However, with those great writers that I mentioned previously, they just love the process of songwriting so much, they do not care whose ideas we use, they just want to write a good song. They have brought the ideas as many times as I have. We sit down and talk about what is going on, and somewhere in the conversation we get our ideas for a song. The best songs that I have written were not calculated ideas, just writing about life.

[Doak Turner] How many trips did you make to Nashville before you moved and when did you know it was time?

Keith Anderson It is different for everyone. I had only made one trip before the big move. I had a lot of friends that encouraged me to move from Dallas to Nashville . I was a goal setter and knew what goals were obtainable, and what level I should try to reach in Dallas , as far as putting a band together, performing experience, a comfort level with playing the guitar in public. I made sure I was at those levels and had put together a demo product that I would feel good playing for publishers before I made the move.

I wanted to move to Nashville with a plan. So many people move to Nashville with dreams and they are so far from being prepared, they sit and do nothing for a year or two, then move back home because they need to make money. They need to have their plan and a flexible way to make money if they are going to move to Nashville . I was prepared, had a lot of radio experience, letters of recommendation from Texas radio stations, a polished demo and a plan. My demo was recorded with a band called Western Flyer, so it was a solid project, sounded good, and I felt I was ready. I moved about a year and a half after having that solid demo.

Keith Anderson I have lived on the edge all my life. They know I am going to chase my dreams, and I thank God they support me. If I wanted to be a chess player, my family would have been at every chess match. My older brother is a physicist at NASA, I have an engineering degree, and my younger brother is a CPA. So we all have very different dreams. My older brother lives his music dreams through me, so he is real supportive. My little brother runs my website, www.keithanderson.com , so he is also very supportive.

I had graduated at the top of my engineering class in college, moved to Dallas, broke off an engagement, quit the engineering job, went back to school, got accepted to physical therapy in Dallas, got my heart broke by a different girl, then turned down physical therapy school to chase my music dreams! I am sure there are many people who think I am so unstable. But you know, there is something about music and my family understands that, and supports me. That is all that matters.

Keith Anderson I had realistic goals, not expecting to sign a record deal when I first got to town. I swallowed my pride, as many do when moving to Nashville . Here was a number one engineering graduate, accepted to med school, who got a job waiting tables on Music Row. I made a lot of great music contacts that I still keep in contact with today. I always had a demo CD with me, but I never offered one to anyone unless they asked first. My roommate at the time knew a lot of people in the music industry and helped me set up a lot of meetings. I am an ASCAP member, and they also helped me out with the business.

Keith Anderson A songwriter or artist meets and plays music for the ASCAP representative. If they believe in what you are doing, they know what publishers and record labels are looking for in songwriters and artists. They (ASCAP) sent me to the places that they thought I would fit in the business.

Most of the publishers that ASCAP sent me to asked me to cowrite with some of the songwriters in their publishing company. I was able to write some pretty cool stuff with those writers and I'm sure the publishers asked their writers about my abilities during the cowrites. This is how they determine whether you are a "real" writer or not.

I was able to meet with several people, about twenty different publishers and three record companies. No one signed me, although they liked what I was doing, which began the networking in the Nashville music business for me. They looked at me as someone that can do this in the future, and stayed in contact with me. During that time, I was waiting tables, knocking on doors, meeting and networking in Nashville , which is so important for anyone that wants to make it in the music business.

Keith Anderson In the beginning, you have your plans, being realistic. If you know you have it, you keep going and you do not take "No" for an answer. After two years, I was so lucky to have people like Jeffrey Steel, Victoria Shaw, Bob Dipiero, Craig Wiseman and Kim Williams ask me to write with them. I started building up a really good collection of songs, and I pulled back from going to the publishers. I knew that by waiting, I could get a better deal with a publisher and be able to make enough money to not have to work a second job in town. I wanted to make a living writing songs. I also had a song on hold three different times that I co-wrote with George Ducas and Bill Luther. It was on hold for Lonestar and Tim McGraw.

It would mean more money coming into a publishing deal. This is not the norm for most songwriters. I was working on an artist deal, which was appealing for the hit songwriters to write with me, as opposed to being only a songwriter. That is part of the business. I felt like I had really good songs at the time. I got real lucky with the ¡§Beer Run¡¨ song with George Jones and Garth Brooks each putting the song on their new CDs. I had leverage and called my lawyer. I then started going to my dream publishing companies, places where I really wanted to write.

It was a really hard decision choosing which of those companies to sign a publishing deal. They all wanted a part of the ¡§Beer Run¡¨ song, and said they always believed in me, were my best friends. I had to determine who was really going to help me beyond that one song. Who was going to help me reach my goals as a writer and an artist. I had three companies that really made it hard to choose which one to sign with at the time.

I could not have made a better choice, than signing with EMI. They are amazing. Gary Overton is always open to talk with me and the other songwriters in the company, he is absolutely the best when it comes to publishers. Having ¡§Beer Run¡¨ and the other strong songs in my catalog helped me secure a better deal than most first time songwriters.

[Doak Turner] How did ¡§Beer Run¡¨ happen to be written and make both George Jones and Garth's CDs?

Keith Anderson ¡§Beer Run¡¨ happened by writing with Kim Williams. He has written songs that are on close to a hundred million of Garth's CDs. I wrote ¡§Beer Run¡¨ with Kim, George Ducas, Amanda Williams, and Kent Blazy. Amanda is Kim's daughter, who actually brought the idea to the room. She had just gotten back from college for the summer and told us about the saying "B-double E-double R-U-N." We had that same saying when I was in college, but I had forgotten about it until she brought it up. So, we wrote it. About a week later, Garth called Kim and said he was looking for songs for a new CD. Kim sent it to Garth, and he really liked it, but wanted a rewrite. I assume that was for the duet with George Jones. So it would have more of a Jones-type melody. Then we just hoped for the best.

Keith Anderson Like many singers that come to Nashville wanting to be artists, I ended up learning how to write songs. The best way to become an artist is to write a hit song. People realize who you are, and then you have an opportunity to showcase yourself as an artist.

My first two years, I played out a lot with just my guitar, doing songwriter's nights with friends. Eventually, I put together an acoustic band with acoustic guitars, vocals, and percussion, singing a lot of harmonies. We worked hard together to tighten it up and develop a good sound. Last year, I put together a full band with electric guitars, drums, and bass - a full sound. It was all based on goals that I had set. My publisher, EMI, really started getting behind me and we started putting together my pitch package.

There was a Jim Beam Country Band Search that was coming up in the near future. I had been to the last three years of the contest, realized what a good quality production that was, and how many music business professionals came to those shows. My band won the finals, which was in November of 2002. It was a huge boost in notoriety, as several of the label people were in attendance. Jim Beam has supported me so much already, getting me on as the opening act for a Montgomery Gentry concert in North Carolina , among many other things. I'll start showcasing for labels next month.

Keith Anderson No, I've done a lot of radio sponsored events. I was part of the ¡§Rick and Bubba Fat Fest¡¨ this past summer in Birmingham , Alabama , that had an attendance of about 10,000 people. And when I lived in Dallas , my band played a lot of the big radio-sponsored events there also. That is the fun part - playing to the big crowds.

Keith Anderson For this year, I want to sign with a record label that really believes in me as an artist. The goal is not to just sign a record deal, but sign it with the right label. A lot of people sign a record deal, then get lost in the shuffle and do not fit in with the label. You have to find a label that is excited with what you are doing. Too many labels sign an artist with a good ¡§buzz,¡¨ but once the artist signs, the label is not sure of what to do with them or loses interest in the artist. The goal is to get the "right" record deal and then start kicking butt!

[Doak Turner] Let's say there are three major labels interested in you. What is going to be the thing that makes you want to sign with them? They are all going to tell you we love you, what are the deciding factors?

Keith Anderson Well, that would be a dream! But if I'm lucky enough for that to happen, it will be very hard, like choosing the publishing company. There was actually one of the other publishing companies that was leading the way, and my heart told me the best decision was EMI. That has proven to be the correct decision over and over again. You want it to be a clear-cut decision, nobody wants a hard decision. The bottom line is, the lights go out, you are there all alone in your quiet little place, you ask yourself, ¡§What feels right¡¨?

[Doak Turner] To wrap this up, any advice that you could give to a songwriter when he or she moves to Nashville ?

Keith Anderson Be patient, do not push yourself on anyone. I saw something about a year and a half ago that I could not believe was happening. Kim Williams came out to see one of my shows, and I was walking him and his wife out to their car at The Broken Spoke. Some yahoo came up to Kim in the hallway, told Kim that he loved the songs he writes, and told Kim they needed to write. Kim had never met this guy and was taken back, but very graciously, did what he could to avoid this situation. Kim, in every way he could, asked the guy to send him something to listen to and told him that he was very busy at the time. The guy said, ¡§OK, you'll be sorry someday if you don't write a song with me.¡¨

That sums up a lot of how things work in this town ( Nashville ) when people come in with the wrong approach. He may have been a great writer, but with that attitude, he will never get the right support. You have to prove yourself. The big writers do not need to write with anyone else. They have their main, proven cowriters. The only way you are gong to get to write with those people is to prove yourself over time, develop your own buzz, and for them to hear about you and want to write with you.

That all comes down to finding a way to get a flexible job to make the money you need to live, and then get out and be heard. If you are an artist or a singer ¡V get heard! I played the Bluebird Cafe and the Gibson Cafe, when it was open, and a lot of other different places when I first came to town. If you play out enough, someone is gong to hear you, and people will start talking about you, if you are legitimate.

[Doak Turner] Thank you for your time and best wishes for your continued success. We will hear great things from Keith Anderson in the future!

Interview With Karen Taylor-Good
Grammy Nominated Hit Songwriter, Speaker and Author

A Monday afternoon in Nashville , sitting in a restaurant, talking to hit songwriter Karen Taylor-Good . She has a new book, "On Angels Wings: Messages & Songs Of Inspiration & Hope," which includes a 14-song companion CD. (Published by Insight Publications, Ltd. Nashville , TN 615-228-8060. Copyright c 2003 by K T Good Music.)

[Doak Turner] What should we know about Karen Taylor-Good and how she came to write this book, "On Angels Wings"?

Karen Taylor-Good I always knew I had the gift of a good singing voice. As I tell in one of the chapters of my book, I've been on a lifelong search for HOW I am supposed to use the gift. I spent several years in Holiday Inn bands in El Paso , where I grew up. I did a duo with a guy also from El Paso named Hugh Prestwood (The Song Remembers When). He was the songwriter and I was the "chick singer." The duo was called "Hugh and Me" (laughs). My search for what I was supposed to be doing continued, and I did not think I was supposed to be a songwriter, or would ever be a songwriter. I just knew that was a gift reserved for the special few, so I kept being the "chick singer." I moved to Memphis , Tennessee , and became a jingle singer for the William B. Tanner Company.

I did that for several years and got to sing back up on many album projects, including Al Green. I also did lead sheets for Isaac Hayes Publishing Company. I moved to Nashville in 1980 and slipped into the spot that Janie Frickie vacated, as she was starting to do her solo thing and she had been a background singer in Nashville . I did a lot of studio work, but always knew that I wanted to be an artist. I learned a lot singing oooh and ahhh on the albums, but it was not a real satisfying job. When you hear the record, and you can barely hear the background singers!

I decided, "OK, I am supposed to be a country music artist." I went that route on an independent label called Mesa Records, which included my partner/manager, Taylor Sparks, and myself. We did some amazing things on this independent label with no money. We had nine chart singles, a couple that went Top 40 and I was even nominated for The Academy of Country Music "Best New Female Artist" award in 1984. I really, really, really thought I was going to win. I even went to a psychic who told me I was going to win. I didn't. (Nicholette Larson did.)

I went into this huge depression because I didn't know what I was supposed to do. I knew I did not want to keep singing ooohs and aaahs, or jingles for dog food and toilet paper, because it just wasn't feeding my soul. I started writing some things down because I was hurting so bad. I wrote and wrote and wrote, and I took a look at what I was writing and thought," Gosh, that looks like a song," but I can't write songs (laughs).

I had taken piano lessons for years, so I slid over to the piano one night when no one else was around. I put my hands to the keys and out spilled music that matched the words¡K.MY words about what I wanted to say!! It was a huge moment and a really big lesson for me. When God slams one door, no matter how painful it is, there IS always anther one open and WHAT a great door this has been. A chick singer's shelf life (laughs) is how long? When you get to be a sixty-five year old lounge singer, it doesn't look too good for you. You can be a songwriter when you are 100 years old!

[Doak Turner] In the book, you tell a story about "Saying YES," which resulted in an amazing song that really helped you in your whole career ¡V right?

Karen Taylor-Good My career starting picking up in some pretty terrific ways about a year and a half ago. I went back to my former manager, Taylor Sparks, and told him I need help. I told him I saw some cool things in my future and I couldn't do them by myself. He came back on board full time. Taylor had told me about six months earlier that I need to write a book. I thought, "Oooh ¡V I can't write a book, I'm not an author." But then, I had also thought I wasn't a songwriter. It was a challenge. I started getting up early in the morning, going to the computer and writing things that were in my heart and I wanted to say¡K and before I knew it (with a LOT of help from Taylor), the book was born!!

Karen Taylor-Good I have been doing a lot of Unity and Religious Science Churches , and did my first Methodist Church the other day. I have also done several Synagogues. However, I would not say that my music is religious at all. I even have a problem with that word, because it tends to separate people. I will say that my writing has a lot of spirituality and hope that it is inclusive, hope that no one in the audience feels left out. The God of my understanding is big enough to love ALL of His children. I recently got into the keynote-speaking world, which is really fun. I do basically the same thing as when I do a writer's night, but I wear a suit, stand up a lot more and use tracks, so that I can stand behind a podium, and get paid quite a bit more money!!

Karen Taylor-Good It is very interesting. I think since 9/11 many people are ready to have more spirituality in their lives to look at some deeper issues. I know that I am and it is happening all over the country. There is an international organization called Spirit in Business that I spoke to a couple years ago, and am returning this June. There are members from Thailand , England , Africa and all over the world ¡V serious business people from companies like Hewlett Packard, American Express and other huge companies. These are people who want to bring more spirituality, integrity and ethics into their business life. Those seem to be the types of companies that are calling me to do my keynote. I weave several of my songs around my talks.

Karen Taylor-Good Yes. I just presented to a US Bank in Milwaukee , Wisconsin , last week, and got to see the comment sheets that people filled out. Many of the participants left very upbeat, hopeful and feeling more connected to each other. I think that a lot of times we forget that we are on the same journey, experiencing the same fears and pains in this human experience. It is good to remember that we are not all alone.

[Doak Turner] In your book, you really open up, as I have never seen any author do, and that is appreciated, to talk about her own personal struggles. Most authors want to talk about the fact that they know someone, and they have a friend that ¡K you are talking about your mom and dad, the challenges that your daughter has had in life. What allows you to not have any hesitation to open up?

Karen Taylor-Good I will say that I have permission from my daughter from a long time ago, when I started writing songs about her and wanting to share them with my audience. Because she did a lot of work in 12 step programs, she is OK with sharing her story. With my parents, it was a little trickier, as I have yet to send the books to my folks, although I am going to do that this week. They know most of the songs, as they have been to my concerts. My mother is 87, and her memory is really failing. The good news is if she gets upset with me about what I shared in the book, she will not remember it tomorrow (laughs). There is a blessing.

[Doak Turner] A chapter that really stands out in your book talks about The Sandwich Generation, which is in the chapter and song title, Hold The Mayo, "Me There In The Middle." Tell me about that chapter of the book.

Karen Taylor-Good The Sandwich Generation is defined as those of us sandwiched between our growing children and our aging parents and still caring for both. There are more and more of us in that classification. That is quite a challenging job. It can be extraordinarily exhausting. My parents lived in Nashville for three years and recently moved to live with my brother, and I miss them terribly. While they were here, there were some days that, when it was 7:00 PM, I just cried, got into the bed and pulled the covers over my head, and thought "I cannot do this!"

[Doak Turner] Did you write the chapter based on the songs, or the songs based on the chapters? Which came first?

Karen Taylor-Good The songs actually came first. I teamed up with Scream Records to do the CD "On Angel's Wings." Since it was a collection of 14 of my favorite songs, it made sense to tell stories based on the songs.

[Doak Turner] The chapter and song title, The Not So Still Small Voice, "How Can I Help You Say Goodbye" is a great story. Can you elaborate on it?

Karen Taylor-Good I had been doing some big time jingles in Chicago , kept an apartment there. That was after the country music career seemed to be going nowhere. I figured I would just do that and make good money for a while, and had a couple nice national commercials on TV.

Karen Taylor-Good (Singing) "Taco Salad, oooo what a treat, made just for you in a bowl you can eat ¡VTaco Bell". I also had Peter Pan Peanut Butter, United Airlines and others. It was good for my pocketbook, but not for my soul. I had started writing songs, and at one point I told myself, "This is killing me, trying to live two lives in two cities." I started trusting that I am a songwriter, and gave up my apartment. A couple years later, all the money from the tacos and peanut butter was gone. I had been to see the bankruptcy attorney, my poor husband, Dennis, was freaking out.

I had been going to a couple "new thought" churches, Unity and Religious Science, and they were very positive and upbeat. One Sunday morning the alarm went off, I was going to go to church, but couldn't stand the thought of it, I was so depressed with everything. I thought, "My life sucks, I have no money, I am going to stay in bed and feel sorry for myself." Then, honest to God, I heard this little voice and it said, "Go to church" and I said, "No!! I am not going, I am depressed and going to stay in bed and feel sorry for myself." The little voice got a little louder and said, "Goooo to church" and I put the pillow over my head and said, "Noooo, I am not going to church." It got really loud and I thought. "OK, OK I am going," but I wasn't happy about it!!

I went to church and Rev. Mitch, (Mitch Johnson, who came to town to be a songwriter!) was talking that day about saying "YES" to life. He is a very passionate speaker, and he gave this wonderful talk. At the end of the sermon he challenged us. He asked how many of us were willing to go out into the world, just for one week, and say "Yes" to life as often as we could. I was so into it, that when he asked how many are willing to take the pledge, I raised my hand and took the pledge!

This woman that I hardly knew walked up to me right after the sermon was over. She said, "Hey Karen, you are a songwriter," and I said, "Yea." She said she had a friend who was a new songwriter and was coming to town, and was an actor from LA, and would I write with him? I promise you, I did NOT want to do this! This guy was a new songwriter, and I figured that being an actor from L.A. , he was probably a big egotistical jerk. I would have said no in a heartbeat, however I had just taken "The Pledge." I was so unhappy, and I was mad. I gritted my teeth, and said. "Yes." I figured I would have this jerk over for a little while for coffee and send him home. Well, his name is Burton Collins, he was not an egotistical jerk and he was a good songwriter. He had also been writing screenplays. The one comment that I often hear about the song, "How Can I Help You Say Goodbye," is it is like a little mini movie. That was thanks to Burton .

Before I had a chance to send Burton away, he said to me, "You know I have had this idea for a song. I was so close to my grandmother and was with her while she was so close to dying in the hospital. She looked at me, saw that I was having a very hard time, and she said, " Burton , how can I help you say goodbye?" He asked if I thought we could write a song with that idea. I went, "Whoa"!! I felt the goose bumps, and the song just fell out in about four hours. That song absolutely changed my life.

Karen Taylor-Good The house we live in was bought with the royalty checks, after Patty Loveless recorded the song.

Karen Taylor-Good Once again, I did not understand that the Universe works in mysterious ways, NOT in the ways I want it to!! I wanted to control the song. I loved the song and knew it was huge. I thought I was supposed to sing the song. I wasn't going to give it away. I got a call from Paul Worley, a big time producer, and he was in the studio with Pam Tillis, and they wanted to cut the song. I told them no.

[Doak Turner] You were still in financial trouble at the time and turned down having your song recorded by a successful singer?

Karen Taylor-Good Yea. I didn't get it (laughs). Then, I had sent my song to my SESAC rep in New York , Linda Lorence. She had taken the song to an A&R person at Atlantic Records. It sat on this woman's desk for months. She finally played it and freaked out. She played it for the head of Atlantic Records, they flew me to New York , the limo driver met me with my name on a sign and I am thinking, "This is it! This is why my Country Artist career didn¡¥t happen¡K..I was supposed to be POP star!! " I went to the meeting with the head of Atlantic Records. Linda had told me they planned to make me "the Carol King of the ¡¥90s."

Mr. Head of Atlantic Records was absolutely in love with my songwriting and voice. We walked into his office and it was supposed to be a very long meeting, he had a piano and I was going to sit down and play him everything I had ever written. But, he had fallen in love with my voice and made up an eighteen year old face to go with it. I did not have an eighteen-year-old face. I have a nice face, but not the one he imagined. The meeting was very short, and I could see it in his eyes as he took one look at me and went, "Too old." At the end of the meeting he asked who does my publishing. I told him that I do the publishing, and he asked me if I didn't want a publishing deal. I replied, "Yes." He said that his good friend, Les Bider was in town. Les is the CEO of Warner/Chappell Publishing. The call was made and Les happened to have a half hour available the next morning.

The rep from Atlantic went to the meeting with me the next morning. She is putting my tapes into Les's tape player, and Les heard five songs and asked me why I didn't have a publishing deal. I told him that I had not found the right place yet. He said, "Welcome home." He gave me a big hug and that was my first and only publishing deal. I was at Warner/Chappell for seven years. I just left a couple years ago. The next time somebody called, which was Patty Loveless, I called Les Bider and told him that I do not want to give up that song. He said, "Karen, you must give it away! Songwriters give away their songs. You will write a song that you love just as much later." I said, "No I won't." He said, "Yes you will." It was the best advice that I ever got in my life.

Patty Loveless cut the song, Laura Brannigan cut the song, Al Jarreau, European artists cut the song, and it is on karaoke machines all over the world. It was nominated for a Grammy in 1995 and I continue to get checks, plus what a great song to have as one's first cut. It is a healing song and I cannot tell you how many letters and e-mails that I get from people telling me it has been played at funerals and memorial services. Burton , Patty, and I have had a lot of people thanking us for the song. It was a miracle song being conducted from a higher place. Thank heaven I listened to the "Not So Still Small Voice" and said, "YES"!

[Doak Turner] Please tell me about the chapter and song title, Teenage Mutant Alien Pod Person - "Heart of My Heart (Where Did You Go?).

Karen Taylor-Good Anyone that has a teenage child or has had a teen knows that you are everything to them the first eleven or twelve years of their lives. You rule! It is shocking and painful when all of a sudden you aren't so hot anymore. All of a sudden you get stupid and are uncool and they do not want to be seen with you anymore.

I wrote a song with my friend Brenton Roberts called, "Heart of My Heart (Where Did You Go)." I have a lot of people that connect with this song. As we were writing this song, every once in a while Brenton, who does not have children, would want to veer off to write what it was like to be a teenage. I told him there are countless movies and songs with teenage angst. No one has ever addressed what it is like to be the parent, and I really wanted to write THAT song.

[Doak Turner] Tell me about the love notes at the end of the chapters in the book.

Karen Taylor-Good The love notes were my sweet husband Dennis's idea. I am so grateful to him for that. At the end of every chapter is a note of encouragement. This one that I am reading says, "If you are currently experiencing a similar situation with your teenager, please know that most often they come back. Give them the space to grow through this horrendous phase. Rachael, my daughter, is nineteen now, and she is asking for my help and my opinions and even asked me to go to a movie with her the other night. Hang in there, I know how much it hurts."

[Doak Turner] What about your concerts and speaking engagements? Are you still available to groups that may want you to speak to them?

[Doak Turner] Is there anything else that you would like to say to songwriters reading this interview?

Karen Taylor-Good My opinion about songwriters has not changed. I think that we are blessed with an amazing and special gift and we are supposed to share the gift! I notice in my speaking engagements now, if I was strictly an author with a new book and said the same things, I could do my forty-five minute talk and I am sure it would be "nice." The ability to use music along with words really adds a great deal. "A song can travel to places in the heart where the spoken word alone cannot go." It is so true!

Karen Taylor-Good I am one of the people, I have seen it other places. It is so true, and that is the reason we chase after this incredible dream and gift of songwriting. We know that it is a powerful gift, a powerful tool. Something wonderful happens when we write a song and it touches people's hearts. I think songwriters are special people. I love them and bless them on their journey.

Karen Taylor-Good My goals have changed. They used to be "Please let me have a Celine Dion Cut." I used to just want the big cuts. I would sit back and collect the mechanical royalties and checks. That is not my only goal, although, PS - I am pitching my songs and would gratefully accept those cuts!. I am finding it just feeds my soul to be able to deliver my songs myself.

[Doak Turner] The other day when we spoke on the telephone, you said you were on your way to voice lessons. Why do you continue voice lessons, after all these years of singing? You are so talented and have several years of voice training, why continue with these lessons?

Karen Taylor-Good I have been taking voice lessons once a week for twenty something years (laughs). When I am out of town I have to miss them, but it is just the feeling that I can always get better.

Karen Taylor-Good I needed them early on to teach me the right techniques so that I did not screw up and hurt my voice. I did not want to develop horrible habits. Now, it is interesting because it is just like any other muscle in your body. If I don't go to the gym and workout, what do I notice after a couple months ¡V oops I am getting a little flabby there! Age and gravity unfortunately take their tolls. I think all of us have heard our favorite artists who have gotten older and did not continue to take care of their voices, using that muscle, and I refuse to do that, let that voice go away. I want my voice to get better and stronger so I can continue to share the gift.

[Doak Turner] Anything else you would like to say to the readers of the interview?

Karen Taylor-Good I want to say "thank you" for the comments that I have gotten back on this CD/book, from the people who have read it, and listened to it, and who tell me that it is very healing for them. I guess I feel like that is part of my mission now, to spread some inspiration and healing in these uncertain times. And I want to thank you Doak. You are a dear person, and a dear friend.

[Doak Turner] Thank you Karen Taylor-Good for your time and continued success!

Interview with Jenny Yates, artist with a new CD “Out of the Blue” and songwriter of hits by Garth Brooks and others, including “Standing Outside The Fire” – co-written with and performed by Garth Brooks. We met at Fido in Hillsboro Village in Nashville, TN.

Doak: Jenny, What is happening good with you these days?

Jenny: I’m doing great. I’ve just finished my first record and have begun performing again, which feels terrific.

Doak – Tell me about your new cd.

Jenny: I got to a point in my life where I was making a “To Do” list. At the top of that list was to “Make A CD”— I realized that if I got to the end of my life and had not made a record – it would be a regret and I vowed long ago to do everything I could to not have regrets – and this was something I could do something about.

Doak: After having years of songwriting success, having your work sung by others, how did you approach making your own record?

Jenny: It had to be about the songs. I had many years of writing, many songs to choose from. My criteria was to choose songs that I could stand up and sing, just me and my guitar, that would still communicate that stripped down way. Songs that were true for me. And then, I worked at putting them in a musical context that supported the songs, and would let them present themselves.

DOAK: You started the CD with one of my favorite songs, “The Streets of Your Town” that has been recorded by Kathy Mattea. Tell me about that song.

Jenny: “Streets” is about feeling an attraction for someone – being lost in that feeling because there’s no way out of it – and how everything comes to life when you feel that way – everything speaks to you – and brings up that wanting. The entire lyric came out of the first line –“there’s a red Ferrari following me” – that alone spoke to me of a powerful, sexy something just out of view and not leaving me alone— yet turning to find there’s nothing tangible there. And, from there I just let the images spill out on the page.

It was the first song that I wrote with Andrew Gold. He had forgotten that we had a writing appointment that day. I called then showed up at his house. He had quickly come up with a the brilliant hooky music and melody for this song. One of the great things about working with someone who is so talented, as Andrew is, he hears parts as he’s writing and records them as you go, so the by the time you’ve finished the writing appointment, there is also a nearly finished demo – which sounds like a record.

Doak: You have a line in that song, “The Streets of Your Town” that says, “I’m a walking billboard looking to settle down”. Where did that come from?

Jenny: There are things in this world that call out for attention. The feeling that made me write this lyric was so wanting to shout out and say “hey – I'm the someone you been looking for” That is sort of the angst in the song that silently pleads – want me.

Doak: How did Kathy Mattea hear the song?

Jenny: My understanding is that, Kathy is a fan of Andrew’s and her producer at the time was Josh Leo who also produced the “Bryndle” album. The group Bryndle is made up of Karla Bonoff, Wendy Waldman, Andrew Gold and Kenny Edwards. I was lucky enough that “Streets...” was included on that album as well, which was a another great album to be part of. So, I think Kathy heard the tune from Josh, and was already a fan of Andrew’s, and all the members of Bryndle.

Doak: Let’s talk about your writing with Garth Brooks – How did that happen, writing with Garth? Did you become friends with Garth before he was a big artist?

Jenny – Yes. I was signed to ASCAP by Bob Doyle (who later managed Garth Brooks). Bob left ASCAP and invested everything in a couple writer/artists, and Garth was one of them. Bob would mention to writers that he had a new guy and we should come and write with Garth, so I did go and write with Garth. We worked on one song that is still unfinished, but we became friends, and would get together at the end of the day and swap songs back and forth. This was before he had a record deal. Then, he got real famous and I didn’t see him for a couple years.

Doak: Let’s talk about one of the biggest songs that you have written, “Standing Outside The Fire”. It should be a theme for a lot of people. It has one of the best lines I have ever heard in a song, “Life is not tried it is merely survived, if you’re standing outside the fire”.

Jenny: Garth credits me with that line, which is very nice. Garth called and said he was coming to California, would I like to get together? So, we had an appointment to meet for breakfast – and within fifteen minutes after I arrived – out of conversation – Garth described something as being just outside the fire for him – and we both knew what that meant and started to work on the song.

Doak: Garth and Trisha Yearwood are on a couple songs on your CD, what was that like for you?

Jenny: It was great. So much talent. It was like having a very front row seat at a very private concert. And, it was a joy to get to watch the two of them, no pressures, just singing. So much talent.

Doak: You’re so lucky to have the friendships that developed with these talented people, were you living in Nashville to develop these relationships?

Jenny: I lived in Nashville for six months when I was signed with my first publisher, Al Gallico, but I’ve never really lived in Nashville, I just come here often enough and have for enough years, that folks think I live here. And, I have great friendships, and relationships here. There are so many talented people in Nashville. Some become more famous than others, but the talent pool is extraordinary.

Doak: Let’s talk about, if someone lives out of town and can make a couple trips to Nashville for the songwriting business. What advice can you give them?

Jenny: First of all, you need to look at what you want. Is it to make it as a songwriter in Music City, USA? It is a tough dream to have – but it is a do-able dream.
It is important to be here. I do believe Nashville is the only place left where songwriting is looked upon as a career. Perhaps it’s helpful to look at Nashville as a place to learn. And, show up eager and willing to learn.

Doak: You’ve said your strength is words, what are the best places for you to get your ideas?

Jenny: Absolutely everywhere. Honestly, I get ideas from eaves-dropping on conversations, from day-dreaming, driving, reading, movies, tv, the mountains, nature, music, other songs, poetry, photography, painting. I’m always thinking in terms of writing and the meaning of things, or being moved by a phrase.

Doak: Do you have set habits in the way you work? or how do you approach a writing appointment?

Jenny: To this day I feel it is my responsibility to have something to bring to the table. It is my work ethic, which I think came from years and years of working toward getting some place in the music business – and feeling the need to prove myself. It’s just second nature now, the way I work. I will come in with ideas – a hook line, a couple verses or a chorus, sometimes an entire lyric, on rare occasions I'll have a musical idea. .

Doak: Please tell me how you keep these ideas – such as a hook-book.

Jenny: It has changed since we are now in the computer age. In the old days, I had a big box with articles, notes, napkins, pieces of paper and other inspirations, and, I would type out pages of lines or ideas or words. I’m still in the process of typing them into my computer and then I can print out the pages. Then I'll have these pages with me in a writing appointment and invariably I’ll look it over and a few ideas will pop out, and it’s always different which ones pop, and hopefully, one will be something that gels with my co-writer. Often, I’ll get up real early when I’m to write, and just work on whatever is in my head that morning, thinking in terms of my co-writer, hoping to be on the same wave.

Doak: What is the toughest song you have ever written that came deep from your gut that needed to be written?

Jenny: I don’t think I've written it yet. Perhaps I’ve outgrown ones that might answer that question, but, as I get older, as I’ve done this writing thing more, I find that it gets tougher. I’m harder on myself. Wanting more out of an idea. Wanting to say more, and in song, that usually means saying more by saying less. Digging deeper. I want my work to be real, to resonate in an honest way, and I feel like a beginner.

Doak: What were your influences for your singing and songwriting?

Jenny: I started singing professionally when I was 14. I would listen to everything
looking for songs that moved me. I knew over 500 tunes and I got to sing great songs by so many – Jackson Browne, Joni Mitchell, James Taylor, Simon and Garfunkel, Laura Nyro, Cat Stevens, Dan Fogelberg, Carol King, great singers & songwriters. Hank Williams, Merle Haggard, Dolly Parton, Emmylou Harris, Bonnie Raitt, Linda Ronstadt, the list goes on. I don’t think there is any better way to learn about great songs than to sing them.

Doak: How do you choose co-writers?

Jenny: People whose work moves me. I have a wish list, folks that I would love to work with. And, I’ve been able to work with many people who were on my list.

Doak: Who would you love to write a song with in Nashville or anywhere?

Jenny: I still love writing with Garth. Working with him is great, for many reasons, one being that anything is possible. All ideas are possible. He is such a great songwriter. With as many tunes as we’ve written together, no two songs have happened in the same way. One may be written quickly, another takes years, some I might have music for, others just words. Working with Garth is never the same and always terrifically challenging and rewarding.

I got to work with Tony Joe White in November, he’s been on my wish list for quite sometime, and Mike Reid and I have finally started a tune, he’s another I’ve wanted to work with forever. Michel Legrand is on my wish list.

Doak: What type of songwriting workshop would you do for songwriters?

Jenny: I’d love to share whatever I know that might be useful to others. Work habits. Dealing with getting your work out, dealing with the inevitability of rejection.
Co-writing and it’s advantages and disadvantages. Finding ideas and recognizing ideas.
Song structure. There are so many things that go into writing songs, if I've learned tools that might be useful to others – I’d love for them to have them.

Doak: Any advice to songwriters?

Jenny: From a heart point of view – do it because you love it. If you write because you love it, you will never be disappointed. It will never let you down, there will always be joy in the doing. And, from a craft stand-point, write everyday. If you work at it everyday – you’ll be there when a great idea comes along and you’ll know what to do to make a great song.

Doak: What is in your future?

Jenny: More singing. More writing. Hopefully some more doors will open for me.

Doak: Where can someone purchase your awesome CD – “Out of the Blue”?

Jenny: Right now it is at http://www.CDBaby.com/Yates and I have a website,
/http://www.jennyyates.com/

Doak: Thank you Jenny for your time and insight. Best wishes for continued success.

Jenny: Thank you.

Doak Turner is a songwriter living in Nashville, TN. He is a writer for www.musicdish.com and American Songwriter Magazine and owner of www.nashivllemuse.com and the weekly e-zine the Nashville Muse. Contact Doak doak@nashvillemuse.com and 615-354-6400

Interview with Deanna Walker, Blair School of Music , Vanderbilt University
Nashville , TN

By: Doak Turner (Associate Writer)
2004-05-31

The Blair School of Music is part of Vanderbilt University . The songwriting class meets Monday evenings at 7PM and is taught by Deanna Walker and her weekly special guests publishers and professional songwriters.

[Doak Turner] Tell me about your songwriting class.

Deanna Walker I started the program with one adult class, which is the one that we have on Monday nights. I knew from the beginning that the way to go was to ask great writers to come share what they know with us. It's amazing--almost every professional songwriter and publisher I've asked to come to class agreed to give their time to come and speak. One of those people from the early days was Jeffrey Steele, who continues to come back and talk every semester. Jeffrey has had 200 songs cut in the past three years. Rivers Rutherford is also a favorite of the class and teaches his own class at Blair now during some semesters. I still ask pro songwriters that haven't visited yet to speak to the class so that it can stay fresh and interesting.

[Doak Turner] When did your songwriting class start?

Deanna Walker I think it was in 1999. We started with the adult class and then I introduced the college credit classes, which combine songwriting with music theory (which was necessary to meet Vandy's "academic rigor" requirements). I started with one college class, then a couple semesters later we had so many students, we divided it into two sections which then divided into three, and then I started an advanced songwriting class for the college students. I now teach five songwriting classes at Vanderbilt, and then we have the Rivers Rutherford class I mentioned, along with a class taught by Rick Beresford, who also teaches commercial songwriting at Belmont University , and is one of the founding faculty of NSAI Songcamps and the director of the Kerrville Song School .

[Doak Turner] What does Rick teach in his course?

Deanna Walker His course is an interactive, hands-on workshop where the folks in class learn to how to think like professional songwriters. They write songs together in various formats in order to learn how to think about and solve problems in songs as they arise. Rick's taught songwriting privately and through NSAI and Kerrville for many years, and his contention is that the main problem developing songwriters have is that their instincts aren't sharp enough to tell a good idea from a mediocre one, and aren't sharp enough to tell them how to take a great idea and make it fulfill its potential. He felt that if he actually wrote songs with the people in class, that they could deal directly with the issues that the ideas and songs would present, and cover ALL aspects of songwriting in the process.

[Doak Turner] Why should experienced songwriters take your songwriting classes?

Deanna Walker In my Monday night classes, people come to the class who've just started writing songs along with people who've have been writing for a long time--and writing really good songs. The thing is, folks hear each of the speakers and do the exercises and such at their own level. What a beginning writer will hear is different from what a more advanced writer will hear. And you may have heard the same thing said at various times, but one day it may really hit you in a way it never had before. Almost any level of songwriter could take any of these classes and get something out of them.

[Doak Turner] As you think back to the past couple of years, is there anything that just really stands out in what one of the speaker said to your class?

Deanna Walker Tom Douglas, Craig Wiseman, and many hit songwriters have said that when they quit trying to write songs to please their publishers and other people--when they got sick of doing that and decided to write whatever they wanted, magic happened. Craig told the story about having one year left on his songwriting agreement, which meant one more year of free demos from his publisher. He had not had any cuts, was trying to write for the radio and nothing he was writing was getting anywhere. At that point he decided he was going to write whatever he wanted to. He wrote a song called "Ellen" for a girl he knew at the time and apparently the song was quirky and interesting. That was the first song that really made people take notice and say, "Wow, this is really cool writing." I don't know if that song got cut, but it got him some attention and things started picking up. I would say that by now, they've picked up for him about as far as possible!

[Doak Turner] Is there anyone that has taken your class that has had success in the songwriting business?

Deanna Walker Barry Dean, who just got a song on the new Martina McBride CD and another on the new Reba CD, used to visit the class. He lives in Kansas , but would sometimes attend the class when he was visiting Nashville . Now he's one of our favorite guest speakers!!! He took songwriting lessons from Rick and other people in town, always learning as much as he could from the opportunities here. Barry was a speaker last fall and talked about the importance of our class, song camps, and seminars for songwriters.

[Doak Turner] What stands out as far as the publishers that have spoken in your class?

Deanna Walker One of our best publishing experiences ever was with Cliff Audretch of Windswept Publishing. He critiqued everyone's songs and had something useful and helpful to say about each, and was incredibly gracious about sharing his knowledge with the students. I think we have a standing date with him every semester now. We also had AMAZING nights with Chris Oglesby of BMG and Daniel Hill of Cal4.

[Doak Turner] How about feedback from people that have taken your class?

Deanna Walker Everyone raves about the class. They love it. There are people that have been attending for years that started back in 1999. They come back on a regular basis. MANY people say this is the best thing that they have ever done in Nashville for their songwriting. One guy played a song the other night who told me he had been really discouraged, that he had hit a wall and was frustrated that he had learned so much in Nashville , and felt more locked up than ever. This particular songwriter said that the class just gave him the freedom to write again, because we do a lot of free writing, clustering, free-flow things where you are just supposed to write with total freedom and without any self-censorship or criticism. The creative flow is the most important thing and everything else comes after that. If you don't get in the way of the creative thing, it is all good. When you interrupt with too much editing, then you can just really cut yourself off at the knees. There is a place for editing, but the editor in us needs to know that the creator in us needs and deserves to be given the highest priority.

[Doak Turner] Have you seen your students attend your class and start co-writing together?

Deanna Walker Oh yes, it happens all the time. There are people who have attended the class who are like a family, a core unit of people who are very connected to each other. They form lasting friendships and bonds. There is a very friendly supportive vibe in the class that just lets everyone be who they are and welcomes everybody sharing, which opens the door for people to connect with each other.

[Doak Turner] Do you consider your class like graduate school for songwriters?

Deanna Walker Sure, that's a great way to say it. Many people have been out in the world writing songs for years, and sometimes that makes them good or great writers and sometimes it doesn't. You can write songs for a long time and if no one has ever helped you, you may not have ever learned how to say what you want to say in a song. Rick says that he's had clients who've written three or four hundred songs when they've come to him, who are as close to being beginners as those who've only written a handful of songs. Unfortunately, it happens that way sometimes.

[Doak Turner] Why do you think that pro songwriters give their time and knowledge of songwriting to other songwriters?

Deanna Walker The hit songwriters really care about the songwriting community. Yhey really want to give back, and they have 'been there' in the aspiring songwriters shoes. Tom Douglas said in class that he is the perfect example of someone who's just like the folks in our classes. He says he took seminars, workshops, classes--anything he could to learn to write songs from pros, and now he's a hit songwriter who wants to share what he's learned. The hit writers come back to class because they experience how much we appreciate them and how much we want to learn from them. They all seem to really enjoy the experience of sharing in the class.

[Doak Turner] Any other comments about your songwriting class at The Blair School of Music?

Deanna Walker Some people say it is the best kept secret in Nashville , and honestly, I don't know why it isn't better known around town. It's fabulous and it's inexpensive! There are fifteen weeks of classes, with a hit writer or industry person every week, the classes are 7:00-10:00 PM , although some go later. Meanwhile, the Blair school allows people to pay for the semester in installments.

[Doak Turner] How do songwriters contact the school to sign up for the classes?

Deanna Walker Carol Fisher at Blair School of Music 615-322-7651.

[Doak Turner] Thank you Deanna!

Note: I took the class the fall of 2003 and currently go back to visit classes. It is, as Deanna said, one of the best investments for any songwriter in Nashville and the best-kept secret in town. I strongly urge every songwriter to attend the class!

Doak Turner

doak@nashvillemuse.com

PO Box 121456

Nashville , TN 37212

615-354-6400

www.nashvillemuse.com

"Friends Do Not Let Friends...Play To An Empty Room" - DoakTM

Interview With Hit Songwriter Bruce Sudano

Interview With Hit Songwriter Bruce Sudano
Co-writer Of Donna Summer's 'Bad Girls' Releases New CD

By: Doak Turner (Associate Writer)
2004-09-26

Bruce Sudano is a songwriter whose hits include "Bad Girls" (Donna Summer), "Starting Over" (Dolly Parton) (Reba McIntire), "Tighter and Tighter" (Alive and Kicking), and "Tell Me I'm Not Dreamin" (Jermaine and Michael Jackson). He has released a new CD called www. Rainy Day Soul.com on Purple Heart Recording Co. We met at BMI in Nashville to discuss his songwriting and artist career.

[Doak Turner] Bruce, what is happening good with YOU?

Bruce Sudano The most recent thing that has been happening is this new CD, Rainy Day Soul. The second single is currently # 1 on the AC Charts. The first single went to # 2. This is my first CD in twenty years. It has really focused my own artist persona. For a long time, being a songwriter and working on other people's movies and other projects, you are in a side situation. When you become the artist again it takes on a more personal and meaningful point of view. It is making a statement that represents YOU! For other projects, you tailor the song to the situation for the other person. On Rainy Day Soul I got to say just what I wanted to say in my songs. I have been writing songs for 30 years and it was very fulfilling in this situation. I got a sense of leaving a legacy of who Bruce is and what he really wanted to say, so it was very fulfilling.

[Doak Turner] Tell me about the title, Rainy Day Soul.

Bruce Sudano The title was an afterthought. I had a list of titles, but nothing was really jumping out at me for a title. I was at a mastering point in my studio, [and I] put the CD on as background music while I was doing e-mails. People are always multitasking these days, which were some of my thoughts on the songs. It is not like back in my day when someone bought a Beatles album and just listened to that album, not doing anything else. Today everyone is so busy, so musically I tried to create music that would work as background; it would not rock your world if you just had it on. However, if you wanted to focus, it could hold your attention.

One day I'm sitting in the studio and the title "Rainy Day Soul" just popped in my mind. As a title, I felt it was a statement that reflected the mood of the record. As for the meaning, it is a common thing that we all have inside of our soul. "The hollow place in all of us that longs for and seeks after the spirit of God, while at the same time, possessing a childlike faith which believes that no matter what, if He be for us, then who can be against us." That is the spirit of this CD.

[Doak Turner] Tell me about the new single.

Bruce Sudano "Where Would I Be" -- I call it "Ode to My Wife" because those of us guys who have been single for a long time, [it's] a crazy life. I wonder where I would have been if I did not meet my wife. The road I was gong down would not have led to a good end. There is one line in the song, "My life is like a symphony with the highs and lows and all the in-betweens." The fulfillment of my life is what the song is about. My life before meeting my wife was all about music. I didn't get married 'till I was 31 years old, and [I] walked down that road pretty far by myself. Part of the decision of getting married was realizing it is time to broaden your horizons and fill out your life. Part of being married has been being a husband and a father, and now a grandfather.

[Doak Turner] Was it pretty hard to write that song or did it come pretty easy for you?

Bruce Sudano All the songs came out of a turmoil [in] my life. I had been married for over 20 years, and my youngest child was out of the house. Our relationship was in a period of adjustment. There was a void in a sense of purpose and what do I do with my time, having two people in a house where there used to be five people. So, a lot of these songs came out of the adjustment period. None of it was difficult, just time spent soul searching and living through that adjustment. For this CD, I had that time and focus to live out the transition.

[Doak Turner] Were you journaling?

Bruce Sudano I usually do not write songs through journaling. I had the time to go to the studio and I would start with a chord change or a drum beat. Over the years, I have written to a rhythm track or piano and guitar. I used to write to drumbeats years ago, and [I] did not want to do that, as those songs used to be shallow. Now, I write more lyrics and I usually write a song in a week. I start building a track, building up what that lyric is about. I can go top to bottom of finishing the track and writing the lyric. The last thing for me is finishing the lyric. I like to put most of the time in the lyric. You have three and a half minutes, and I want to say things soulfully and what is really inside me.

[Doak Turner] Do you re-write?

Bruce Sudano Generally, I do not re-write. I haven't been a good re-writer. I have had to force myself to re-write. Lyrically, I may fine tune it, but by the end of the week, I have re-written the song. I have to apply and work through it to re-write. When I write for myself, I find I am much more free and more creative, as compared to writing for someone else, thinking the song is too far out of the box for that other person.

[Doak Turner] What are you doing to promote the CD - are you touring?

Bruce Sudano I have always been a member of a group, so I am looking at myself as a new artist. I am laying groundwork to radio, going to get out there and do the Borders and the Barnes and Nobles book stores. I have a vision for the kind of group [I want]. I am starting with myself, building around my ability to play and translate these songs to my ability, then maybe [expand] to a two- or three-piece group. I vision a jazz-folk kind of vibe.

[Doak Turner] When are you looking at hitting the road?

Bruce Sudano Probably in July and August, locally in Tennessee and the stations that have been on my singles, [then] hitting the Midwest towns. AC Weekly Magazine recently nominated me and I won the award for Best New Contemporary Artist . The award ceremony was in June in LA. That will be my debut performance. That is a shock to me, totally flattering, as I was nominated with John Mayer, Seal and Josh Grobin .I did not expect to win, and it was a great time to rest and relax in LA. I look forward to meeting some of the radio people. It is Radio and Records (a radio publication) week.

[Doak Turner] Do you own your record company?

Bruce Sudano Yes, it is my company.

[Doak Turner] What about the next single?

Bruce Sudano I am making a creative decision. It will be "Hey Chatty." It is more of a pop and less of an AC (Adult Contemporary) song. I want to expand the base of listeners to my CD. I am already actively writing songs for the next CD. I am on a program to release the next CD by next year and I will start recording this July and release it next July.

[Doak Turner] What have you found gets your songs played on radio?

Bruce Sudano The song, the person working the song, and the money. I had success at the lower and middle rung of the AC world. I get calls from independent radio promoters that want me to give them money to have a song played - to the tune of $25,000. There are a great number of stations out there that are willing to play my music, and they have been very responsible and they are looking for great adult songs to play. If they hear something that is new and credible, they play them - thank goodness.

[Doak Turner] You have had big success over the years. One of my favorite songs, "Tighter and Tighter," was a big hit for you when you were a member of the group Alive and Kicking. You were based out of Brooklyn . Where you writing with the group? What was that period of your life like?

Bruce Sudano I wrote a co-song a song with Tommy James and the Shondells called "Fireball." He was my mentor as a songwriter. I was about 18 at the time, [and] had this band, Alive and Kicking. I was working my way through college, working the clubs such as Trudy Hellars, The Cheetah, and all of these clubs in Manhattan . I would work the clubs six nights a week, and I would work until three in the morning, [and then ]get to class at St. Johns University in the morning.

Somewhere along the way, Tommy James showed up at The Cheetah, which was at 8th Avenue and 52nd Street in Queens . He lived around the corner. We became friends. I would go to his apartment and we would write. He was working on the Crimson and Clover album at the time. I sang backgrounds on this album. The song that we co-wrote, "Ball and Fire," was on that album. "Crystal Blue Persuasion" was on that album and it was originally slated to be on my band's (Alive and Kicking) album. We got signed to Roulette Records.

When the song became a big single, that all changed. Morris Levy was president of Roulette Records, and he said scolding, "Bruce - you can't have that song. We are putting that our with Tommy - don't worry, Tommy will write you another hit." WE had already rehearsed "Crystal Blue Persuasion" and I told Morris we needed that song! He said "Don't Worry." Tommy and I kept writing and one day Tommy called and said he and Bob Kin co-wrote a song that they thought was a smash. Tommy played it for Morris Leavy. We got an arranger, Jimmy Windsey. We went in the studio and it was a big hit pretty quickly, "Tighter and Tighter." Myself and the other guys in the group wrote all the other songs on the album. I haven't listened to that album since we cut it in 1970. Recently, Rhino Records put it out. A friend of mine sent it to me, and I was embarrassed. What the heck was I writing about and what were we singing about?

Tommy was writing and producing and was a mentor to me. I got to spend time at the Allegro Studios on 51st Street with Tommy till all hours of the night, singing parts and learned how to make a unique record, what makes a hit song. Those lessons have served me very well over the years.

[Doak Turner] Did you use those on your CD?

Bruce Sudano Those years in the '70s are something that are a part of my being. I have grown and developed the craft more and more. But those initial things that I learned and still deploy, [are] something in developing your ear. There is still something that when I put on a record, it will speak to me and say "Hit Radio." I was not thinking radio when I recorded my CD. I was thinking about creating a record for a listener. It wasn't part of my consideration. It is all part of that initial training.

[Doak Turner] You have had tremendous success with a couple of other hit songs that you have written, "Bad Girls" and "Starting Over Again" to mention a few. Maybe a couple of stories behind those great songs?

Bruce Sudano The biggest Donna Summer song was "Bad Girls." That came about when I was in a group called Brooklyn Dreams. We were recording our first album in Los Angeles in 1977 when I first met Donna. We met and instantaneously started writing songs together. I had to move to Irvine, CA, which was about an hour from LA. Donna would drive out and visit maybe one day or night a week. She did a part on our album, and Brooklyn Dreams sang backup on her album, I Remember Yesterday.

As Donna's and my relationship developed as writers and as a couple, whenever we had a day together, a friend of mine from Brooklyn, Inky (laughter) was his name, would get with us. Those guys from Brooklyn always have those cool names. Inky had a studio in the valley and Donna, Joe Esposito Eddie Hogason - members in our trio - and I would go in the studio and write at 11 at night. Inky would turn on the mics, [and] I would play guitar and piano. We would go for hours with the tape running.

One particular night, Donna had an incident at Casablanca Records on Sunset Blvd. Sunset was famous for street girls walking up and down the street. This one particular day, there was this black secretary working at the record company. She got pulled over by the cops because they thought she was walking the streets. In fact, she was a secretary walking down the street. Donna wanted to write a song about the girls on the street. The tape was running, and she started singing about Bad Girls. A couple days later we talked about it.

Probably six or eight month later, Donna was going into the studio to record what was going to be and ended up being the Bad Girls album. Donna was writing with Georgio Moroder. There was this engineer, Steve Smith, [who] was going through a pile of tapes that Donna had brought in. He stumbled on "Bad Girls" and really liked it. I did some lyrical treatment. She usually just streams out tons and tons of stuff and I will go back and edit, pull and tweak. That is what I did with "Bad Girls" after she spewed out about 90% of the song. Donna and I cut a real demo with a band. We brought it in to Neil Bogart, who was head of Casablanca Records, and said we had a smash. Neil did not hear the song as a smash. He thought it was too Rock and Roll for Donna, said he had just signed Cher, and wanted her to record the song "Bad Girls." So, we looked at each other and told him to give us our song back.

We took the song to Georgio Moroder. Georgio cut it and it was a catalyst song for Donna. She was more orchestrated disco up until this point. The Isley Brothers' "Who's That Lady" was a big influence on us. When Georgio and Donna opened up to the song, it evolved into "Hot Stuff," "The Rock," and all that stuff. It was a crucial song, almost going to Cher.

[Doak Turner] Is that you playing the lead guitar on "Bad Girls"?

Bruce Sudano No, it was Skunk Baxter (former Doobie Brother, Steely Dan and studio musician). We wrote it on acoustic guitar, tripping on an Isley Brothers groove, tapping into a "Fly Robin Fly" by the Silver Convention, or some kind of groove like that!

[Doak Turner] Did the "Bad Girls" song lead to the "Sunset People" song on the album?

Bruce Sudano Yea, it all evolved for the album. It just opened the floodgates to what the album was all about. Another song on the album, "On My Honor," sounded like a country song with a German perspective, as Georgio and those guys gave it a twist.

[Doak Turner] Any other stories behind the song you would like to share?

Bruce Sudano "Starting Over Again," which went to #1 for Dolly Parton in 1980. Reba recorded it as a title cut of one of her CDs a couple years ago. I wrote the song with my wife, Donna Summer, about the divorce of my parents. They were married for 32 years and got a divorce. I never thought the song would see the light of day. Most of my song that were hits, I never thought they would see the light of day. However, through some fluke or whatever you want to call it, strange things happen. Somewhere out of left field songs get cut. It came at a time when "Bad Girls," "Thank God It's Friday" and "American Hot Wax" were happening. We were going 150 miles an hour and my parents were going through a divorce.

I was sitting at a piano and Donna opened a door to the big house where we were living. This part of the house used to be the maid's quarters and we set up what would become our studio and writing area. I was writing the song, she stuck her head in the door and said, "You know what you should say in this song - All the kings horses and all the kings men couldn't put mommy and daddy back together again." I incorporated what she said into the song. Donna and I have this standing joke where she says, "Yea Bruce, you wrote the song, but I gave you the hook." That is Donna's strength, as she is the Hook Meister.

That song was written and just sat there for a long time. Donna was going to be on the Johnny Carson Show. She came to me and told me that she is going to sing "Starting Over Again" on the Johnny Carson Show. I asked her, "Why, it 's not on your record"? She thought it would help get my parents back together again and it is a good song. She sang it on the show, the next day we got phone calls from Dolly Parton's producer or somebody with her organization asking who's song is it, who wrote it and whatever. At that time, I was doing my first solo album called The Fugitive Kind and I had just recorded it on my unreleased album. To this day, Donna has never recorded the song.

[Doak Turner] You just had to write the song, didn't you? You just wrote what is happening in your life.

Bruce Sudano Yea, just write them to the best of your ability.

[Doak Turner] Tell me about Jermaine Jackson cutting one of your songs.

Bruce Sudano "Tell Me I'm Not Dreaming," which was a duet with Michael and Jermaine Jackson that I wrote. I co-wrote it with Michael Lamortium and Jake Ruska. It was another evolution. We were working on Jermaine's record. Michael Lamortia was producing the album for Jermaine. Michael and I became friends when he produced Donna's album, She Works Hard For The Money, and we had co-written a couple songs for that album. Michael had a track that Jermaine liked, and if I wanted to write something, it would probably get on the record. Jake and I went to my studio and came up with the lyric. Everyone liked the song. Jermaine took the song and played it for his brother, Michael Jackson, who also liked it and it became a duet. Jermaine released it as his first single, radio went nuts about the song and then Jermaine's record company, Arista, got a call from Michael Jackson's company, Columbia Records, with a "Sist and Desist" from playing the song. Michael's Bad album was coming out and the company thought it would hinder Michael's new release. It was a top 5 R&B and #1 dance. In the pop [charts] it was cut short, in the 30s, because of Columbia Record Company's actions against the song. Every song has a story!

[Doak Turner] What else is on your mind today regarding songwriting?

Bruce Sudano I would love to talk about Harland Howard. Before I came to Nashville about 10 years ago, I had been living in Los Angles for about 16 or so years. My love of songwriting over the course of living in LA had diminished, because my focus had gotten shifted from the art and doing what you love for the love and passion [of it], the need to do it, and [the] need to say what you need to say. It went to "I need to write a hit, the mogul factor." Bigger and greater than always is how it is done in LA. Over the years, I felt smaller and smaller, [and I] lost touch with my creative heart and soul.

We moved to Connecticut for a couple years, where I connected with real people, auto mechanics, plumbers, and those kinds of people. I started coming to Nashville to write because I had never written here, although I had a big hit ("Starting Over Again"). One of the first people that I met was Harland Howard, and he sort of turned my head back around of having pride, and the contribution it is to have songs make a contribution to a society. I will ever be indebted to Harlan Howard for taking the time to spend with me. Now that he is gone, I think about those times with Harlan, [when] he would just sit with me. I never wrote a song with him, and people would ask why I hadn't written a song with him. I would tell them that if that day ever happens and he wants me to write a song with him, that would be fine. I was not going to maneuver Harlan to write a song with Bruce Sudano. That was not what I wanted to do. He gave me so much by spending the time with me. He helped me refocus as a songwriter. It took me a long time to say, " I am a songwriter, this is what I do, and this is what I am going to do till the day I die." There is no more hedging of the bets.

When I left LA and moved to Connecticut , I was having doubts about being a musician and a songwriter. I was having hangover from the mogul factor, as I mentioned a couple minutes ago. I thought I would just open a bagel store. I came across something in the New York Times of where they were having a bagel seminar. I called up one of my buddies who worked in an auto body shop. We took a Saturday afternoon and went to somewhere in New Jersey , and went to a bagel seminar. I sat there and I watched guy after guy come up to a counter and say, "Do ya see THIS Bagel, THIS is the Best Bagel in the world. Look at this crust, is that the Best Crust you've ever seen in the world." With every guy that did this, I sank further and further in my seat. But, it was a revelation that they were passionate about bagels, and I could never compete with these guys and their bagels, because I did not care one thing about bagels. What I care about is songwriting, making records, THAT is my love. From that day forward, combined with what Harland put in me, there was no turning back ever. I am proud to be a songwriter.

[Doak Turner] What would you tell someone that just moved to Nashville to write songs?

Bruce Sudano I tell any songwriter to be true to yourself. The plus and minus of living here is you can schedule yourself everyday to write with different people. Songwriting is 50% craft. There is that thing that happens when you co-write, but take time to write on your own! Develop who you are, the things that you have to say in the ways that you alone can say them. It is a balance and both things are important.

[Doak Turner] Thanks, Bruce, and continued success to you and your family!

Doak Turner

doak@nashvillemuse.com

PO Box 121456

Nashville , TN 37212

615-354-6400

www.nashvillemuse.com

"Friends Do Not Let Friends...Play To An Empty Room" - DoakTM

Interview With Songwriter and Performer, Benita Hill

By: Doak Turner (Associate Writer)
2004-02-20

We are sitting on the deck of the songwriter and performer Benita Hill in Nashville . Benita has had tremendous success with songs cut by Garth Brooks, including "Take The Keys to My Heart," "Two Pina Coladas," and "It Was Your Song," along with cuts by Isaac Hayes and others. She has released four CDs. You can read more about Benita at www.benitahill.com.

[Doak Turner] Hello, Benita. Please tell the readers about your new CD.

Benita Hill It's called The Things That Are Real. It does not really fit into any genre. I am calling it a spirit album. My intention for the album was that these songs would touch upon the listener, and encourage them to feel their hearts and heal their hearts in some way.

[Doak Turner] I do not believe that I have ever heard a CD that seemed so personal, so much from the heart of what someone is going through. Sometimes we can reach a certain age and be so honest and not care what we say. Is that what you were doing with it, trying to inspire people to do the same thing?

Benita Hill (laughing) I do care what I say and want to make it mean something and be real. So many women feel so much pressure as women to be beautiful all of the time, to have perfect bodies, to be the perfect weight and this and that. Sometimes women end up in personal relationships where their partner puts so much pressure on them to be perfect. I know so many women who have been dumped in their 40s by their husbands for the 25 year old secretary. You start to re-evaluate and ask yourself, "Am I good enough, where am I and who am I." For me, it has been a time of acceptance and of letting go of those kinds of expectations and the freedom to be real!

[Doak Turner] Is this something that you have been working on, did you journal these thoughts and turn them into songs?

Benita Hill No, not really. They are songs that have evolved over the past couple of years.

[Doak Turner] How did you come to write the songs for the CD, as they are different from your other CDs?

Benita Hill All of these songs - they weren't daring to be different; they all came from a place in me wanting to express the particular stories in the song. Of course, on the co-written songs I had help from my co-writers. We expressed some similar feelings about every situation expressed in each song.

[Doak Turner] In the song "The Bow" is an incredible song. Everyone can relate to what that particular songs says.

Benita Hill There is a really great story to that particular song. I came up with the idea and wrote it with Julia Rich. I never really knew my dad. He was absent and I re-connected with him when I was 35 years old. It was very difficult. My dad was an alcoholic. He left our family, my mom and my three brothers. My grandmother raised us. There was always a longing for the father I did not have, and wondering what that would be like if he was ever in my life and if I got to meet him. When we did connect, it was very bittersweet. It was hard, and I did not want to judge him. By that time, I had done so much healing on my own to get over that wound that there wasn't any bitterness toward him. I figured if there was any reason he left, or it was his disease of being an alcoholic, he didn't know any other way except to do what he did. I had forgiven him.

He passed away two years ago from liver problems related to the alcoholism. I did get to tell him that I loved him before he passed way, which was wonderful. I thought about that particular song and wrote it with Julia; about how some things do not have closure, no matter what you do to make the relationship to be closed the way you would like it to be. You have to be OK with that, and maybe that is enough for the closure. A few days after he died, I was walking in my neighborhood. I looked down and there was something on the ground. It looked like it had probably fell off a piece of woodwork or something. It was a little carved wooden bow. I have it on my windowsill. I picked it up and thought that is the weirdest thing, and just got chills because I thought, "That is my dad and he came to say, 'I am with you and this is OK.'" That was it for me, all the closure that I needed to know that in the spirit we are all perfect. He is a perfect spirit, always with me, and so is my mom.

[Doak Turner] You mentioned your grandfather. It was a surprise listening to "Never Forget." Was that song something from an old memory?

Benita Hill I co-wrote that song with Kevin Smith. We were talking about how there are a lot of Patriotic songs written full of pro-American and anti everybody else, so anti to everyone that does not agree with us. Most of the newer patriotic songs have a lot of hate in them, and I do not think that was the spirit in which our country was shaped. It was made to embrace all of our differences and equality for everybody of all races. My grandfather was an Italian immigrant who came to America and he did not have anything over in Italy . He was able to work hard in America and make decent money, compared to the kind of life he led in Italy . He worked on the railroad; my grandmother ran a boarding house for Italian immigrants and railroad men in Chicago . That particular song just fell out and is something just to remind me of what the spirit of our country is about. It is not about "The Angry American" (laughter).

[Doak Turner] The song had a surprise twist when you started talking about the other woman that he loved more that your grandmother.

Benita Hill I think that for me, the concept of freedom is a value to be cherished.

[Doak Turner] A song that really stands out to me is "It's A Great Day, Even When It Rains." Tell me about that song. There is such a different voice on that song!

Benita Hill I wasn't going to put that song on the album, but it fit so well because it is a very optimistic song. It is about turning negative situations, such as fear and illness, into positive things. That is the meaning of the song. I do not sometimes know where songs come from - they just come. I put that song on the CD as a last minute thing. It was a demo that I'd had, just loved it and thought that it really works with the CD.

[Doak Turner] What other songs do you want to talk about on the new CD?

Benita Hill "Sending You the Light of My Love." That is an older song that I wrote with Sandy Mason, and I believe that prayer is a light that can go out and touch others. It is a song of hope and reaching out to loved ones. I know that when I was hospitalized with cancer, I would get notes, letters and phone calls from friends and they would say they are sending the light of their love. I could feel that love, and those words enabled me to feel those things. They played such a big part in the healing process.

[Doak Turner] "I am a Woman of Power." Tell me about that particular song.

Benita Hill That is an older song, too, that I wrote with Donna McElroy. I got the title from a lady named Edwene Gaines, and she does empowering women seminars. She comes out on stage and says, "I am a woman of power." It makes you go "YEAH!" I knew I was going to write a song with that title and told her. She thought that was great! I can't wait to send her the CD.

[Doak Turner] Was that one of the songs that you loved the hook and for the next ten minutes, your mind is thinking about that song you will write and is all you can think about at the time?

Benita Hill It was something that made a lasting impression. Her basis was that she acknowledges the source of all power, which is the spirit and God. That is the way that I acknowledge life.

[Doak Turner] Please tell me about the song "You Forgot I Could Fly."

Benita Hill - I wrote that song with Garth Brooks. Garth had the idea for the song. He was going to get it to the people who produced the first Harry Potter movie. They passed on the song. I like to tell the story that they got two songs submitted, one was ours and one was Bruce Springsteen's. They passed on them both. I say that I went down with the boss! (Laughter). Me and Bruce and Garth, all in the same rejection pile. That was the inspiration for that particular song. I always loved that song and told Garth that I wanted to put it on my CD, and he said go for it!

[Doak Turner] How is it writing with Garth?

Benita Hill It was wonderful. He is so incredibly talented and it was a wonderful experience. He wrote all the lyrics to that song. I contributed the music.

[Doak Turner] You have had three of your songs covered by Garth. Had you ever written with him?

Benita Hill No, we had never written together. That was the first and only song that we had written.

[Doak Turner] What do you really want the listeners to know about your CD?

Benita Hill It is not a jazz album and I hope that won't disappoint my jazz fans. just hope the people will be touched emotionally, spiritually and be moved by the record and that it will heal them at some level. The songs will be soothing and uplifting and bring them peace. I hope they are entertained and it makes them feel good about themselves.

[Doak Turner] What are YOUR favorite songs on the CD?

Benita Hill "You forgot That I could Fly" is one of my favorites. I really like them all. "Just a Dream" is one of my favorites and was inspired by the poem by Poe. It is kind of an "Imagine" by John Lennon. The wistful "what ifs" - what if everything was perfect.

[Doak Turner] What would happen if we all ran into all those broken hearts, which one would we want to heal?

Benita Hill It would be wonderful if everyone who fell in loved stayed that way and the one you loved felt the same.

[Doak Turner] Tell me about your songwriting process. Is it sit down at the piano and the words come to you?

Benita Hill A lot of times, yes, I will just sit down at the piano and I just give myself to the piano for a few hours. Sometimes just a melody line or a riff or a lyric will run through my head and I will have to go to work it out on the piano. Sometimes I won't have anything in there and if I play, things come.

[Doak Turner] Do you write every day?

Benita Hill No.

[Doak Turner] You do a lot of co-writing. What do you like about that process?

Benita Hill I think the co-writing enables you to get clearer and what it is you want to communicate. You get the devil's advocate situation going on as you may be locked into something, that there may be a better way to communicate it. When I am writing on my own, I may not be thinking about something that is more accessible to more people. When I co-write, I like to get that little structure and take it in a different direction that I may not have thought of myself.

[Doak Turner] Tell me how you choose your co-writers.

Benita Hill I write with many of the same people that I have been writing with for several years. Lately, I have been writing with Kirk Whalum. I love writing with him, because he is such a wonderful man of spirit, incredible artist, player, producer, and we just are kindred spirits.

[Doak Turner] Where can everyone purchase your new CD, or any of your awesome earlier CDs?

Benita Hill www.benitahill.com and CDBaby.com.

[Doak Turner] Did you write your Isaac Hayes song with Kirk Whalum?

Benita Hill Yes; and Isaac wrote the recitation that he does on the end of that song.

[Doak Turner] Tell me about writing that song with Kirk.

Benita Hill Kirk is from Memphis and was going to do a CD called Into My Soul, which was produced by David Porter ("Soul Man" and other Sam and Dave and Memphis soul hits). Kirk and his wife Ruby were childhood sweethearts. He had the idea of "I loved you in Memphis when we didn't have anything, and now we have all this. But even back then, when we were struggling and starving, we had so much because we had each other." He gave me the idea and I wrote the lyric and he wrote the music.

[Doak Turner] How did Isaac hear the song?

Benita Hill Kirk played it for him. Kirk had the idea of having Isaac appear on the album. Isaac hadn't fully agreed to be a part of album yet. Then he heard the song and loved it. So - yea!

[Doak Turner] What other artists have recorded your songs?

Benita Hill I am working with Kirk on a new project for Barbara Weathers, who is working on a deal. We co-wrote a song with Maurice White (Earth, Wind and Fire). I did not meet Maurice in person but we exchanged the tracks back and forth. It is one of my absolute favorite songs. It is called "Be Myself."

[Doak Turner] Please share how the process of when you did not meet your co-writer, yet still able to write the song.

Benita Hill Maurice sent a track to Kirk to see if he could embellish it. It was just a groove and a couple real cool chord changes. Kirk had a little bit of a melody, and asked if I could come up with lyrics for the song. Barbara was a huge star in the late '80s with Atlantic Starr. They had a ton of hits. We just wanted to find the right songs to re-introduce her to her fan base. I came up with this lyric about being myself. I've been all the way to the top and had the whole world at my feet when I walked the red carpet, everybody wanted me. Now here I am back again and will you still love me? That is the idea of the song, will you want me when I am just being myself? Barbara was really young when she started out in the business, just a teenager. She is now in her 30s. When she was young, she did what everyone told her to do - the label and the band thing. She was the only girl in the band, all the guys wrote all the songs. She did not know anything about the co-writing process, building up some posterity for yourself and for your future. Now she is older and wiser, so we tried to write some older and wiser tunes for Barbara. We went back and forth. Maurice said someone else wanted the tracks. But - when he heard the lyrics, he gave us the tracks. He said OK, that is Barbara's.

[Doak Turner] Whom else are you writing with these days?

Benita Hill I am writing with Mandy Barnette. She just signed with Sony, after previously doing a project with Arif Mardin, Norah Jones' producer. She was not really happy with how the songs turned out for that project. I am working with her as a writer to develop her voice as a writer, because she is a wonderful singer who knows who she is. I believe that she has a good shot with Sony if she can present her own voice, the person that she wants to be and the songs that she wants to sing. I think that is real important for her at this stage of her career.

[Doak Turner] You have been in Nashville for 23 years, and have seen a lot of songwriters come and go. You have watched many of the songwriters rise to success. What are some of the key things that you have seen songwriters do to be successful?

Benita Hill When I first came to town, my first publisher was Audi Ashworth, who just passed away. He had JJ Cale (Cocaine), and Don Schiltz was a new songwriter in town. Don had just written "The Gambler" and he got a couple of other cuts at the time. This was before Kenny Rogers cut it. I remember when Kenny cut that song. Don was going to the Grammys in a limo, and he was (laughing) a nervous wreck. He just took off!

[Doak Turner] Everyone keeps talking about writing in your peer group. Is that how you did it?

Benita Hill I asked everyone to write with me and got him or her to write with me. I thought what the heck, I will ask them to write with me. All they could do is say no (laughter). I'd start at the top and work down (Laugh). I would just try and connect with writers if the vibe was right.

[Doak Turner] Anything else you would want to say?

Benita Hill Buy the new CD! And it even has a holiday song on it. I wrote the song with Julia Rich. The song is called, "Holidays at Our House." It is not on my previous holiday CD and it is a bonus track on the new CD. It is not limited to just Christmas for the Christians, as I have several friends that are Jewish! We wrote it last year over the holidays at Julia's house. I started a melody and she started writing the lyrics.

[Doak Turner] Thank you Benita!

Doak Turner

doak@nashvillemuse.com

PO Box 121456

Nashville , TN 37212

615-354-6400

www.nashvillemuse.com

"Friends Do Not Let Friends...Play To An Empty Room" - DoakTM

Interview With Founders of www.SongU.com

Interview With Founders of www.SongU.com
Hit Songwriters Sara Light and Danny Arena Put Songwriting Workshops Online

By: Doak Turner (Associate Writer)
2004-02-12

Danny Arena is a Tony Award nominated composer and maintains a position as an Associate Professor at Volunteer State Community College in Nashville , Tennessee . He has been a staff songwriter for Curb Magnatone Music Publishing, as well as a guest lecturer at the Berklee School of Music, Belmont University , the Nashville Songwriters Association International (NSAI) Spring and Summer Symposiums and has given songwriting seminars throughout the U.S. and Canada . Each spring he conducts his popular six-week courses on Music Theory, Composing and the Nashville Number System and is the co-author of the audio songwriters reference series entitled "The Songwriters Survival Kit." He currently has songs in the musical "Urban Cowboy" which opened on Broadway in March 2003 and was nominated for an Outer Critics Circle Award for Best Musical and a Tony Award for Best Original Score. He is also the co-founder, CEO and one of the main site developers of www.SongU.com, songwriting courses online

Sara Light is a professional songwriter who holds a Master's degree from Rutgers University in English Education. She has given songwriting seminars throughout the U.S. and Canada and her lessons and articles have reached over 20,000 songwriters worldwide. She is the co-author of the audio songwriters reference series entitled "The Songwriters Survival Kit." Among her many songwriting credits is the John Michael Montgomery title track and hit single “Home To You,” which received an ASCAP airplay award and was named 2000 SESAC Country Song of the Year for having garnered over 2 million spins on radio. She also wrote songs for the musical "Urban Cowboy," which opened on Broadway in March 2003 and was nominated for a Tony Award for Best Original Score." She is the co-founder and president of www.SongU.com, songwriting courses online.

[Doak Turner] Where did you get the idea for SongU.com?

Danny Arena Sara actually dreamed the name for SongU.com during a time when we were planning on developing a website with online courses for songwriters.

Sara Light Yeah, I actually dreamed the domain name www.songu.com. We had been doing so many songwriting seminars in Nashville , and people who lived outside of Nashville and all over the world were visiting our other website and asking us how they could take our classes even though they didn’t live near Nashville . Danny is also a computer guy, working for the state of Tennessee . He has won several awards for developing distance education courses on the Internet. And both of our backgrounds are in teaching. I have a Masters in Education and I’ve taught at the college level and Danny has a Masters in Computer Science and has taught at the college level too. Initially, we were just going to put up a website that would just have our songwriting courses. But then, I had this dream that we should call it SongU.com. So Danny said that we should involve our friends that teach songwriting and set up a virtual campus. That was three or four years ago. One of the problems was that we could implement the site … boy that was a lot of work (laughter).

Danny Arena We have several friends that teach songwriting. We run in the same circles and know each other. They thought it was a great idea, so we spent a lot of time developing and working with other songwriting instructors, helping them develop their courses and converting them into web ready courses for distance learning on the Internet.

Sara Light Danny would covert them into web-ready courses by adding audio and animation. And because Danny and I have been teaching songwriters for ten years, we had an idea of what songwriters want to learn. So we tried to build all of those things into SongU.com. Once we got it underway, we asked some of the NSAI (Nashville Songwriters Association International) workshop coordinators to help us beta test as we developed each segment to make sure it worked. That was a big help, as they gave us some great input.

Danny Arena Basically, SongU.com is a site that offers on-line courses that you can take twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, three hundred sixty five days a year. You don’t have to be somewhere at a certain time to take a course. It’s like a year round songwriting seminar! Since you pay a one-time yearly fee and can take all the courses that you want, SongU.com is kind of like a buffet style of learning. In addition to our self-paced courses that are always available, there are also what we call instructor led courses. That’s where several students start the course on the same week, and work through the course weekly as a group.

Sara Light We also tried to keep it personalized. So when someone signs up for SongU.com, they are assigned a guidance counselor and fill out an admissions profile. The guidance counselor can then make recommendations to the member about which courses to take and the coaches can use the admissions profile information to tailor their feedback on song evaluations for the member. What has been great is we can still give that personal feel for the students even though it’s over the Internet.

Danny Arena Yeah, that was one of our biggest concerns. Even though it’s on the web, we really wanted to give our members real personal attention. On our most recent survey, we were really happy to discover that our members really feel like they are getting a lot of personal attention.

Sara Light Danny and I are on the site every day posting answers to assignments as well as other questions. We get to see and share in the progress of our members. We have members in the UK interacting with other members in the US . We have members from the US interacting and co-writing with members from Norway . It’s really pretty cool. We can wake up in the morning and answer questions that were posted overnight to us from a member in Germany . Plus, we have goal-setting groups, co-writer meet and greets, song challenges and a student lounge where members can interact with each other.

Danny Arena We really try to communicate that community vibe. Every member gets a yearbook page, where they can upload MP3s, along with their bio information, influences and whatever else they want to include in their yearbook page. We also run a lot of community events to keep everyone involved and participating as much as they’d like.

Sara Light We have a pretty diverse group of songwriters representing all genres of music from around the world. And everyone is always willing to help each other out on the site.

Danny Arena Because we have such a diverse group of songwriters, another cool feature is that all our courses incorporate hit song examples from different genres of music. We definitely wanted to put up a site where we could use hit songs as examples to illustrate the concepts that we’re covering in the courses. So part of our operating cost is a monthly fee to have access to a library of seven million licensed songs with samples. Amazon.com and AOL use the same provider for their song samples. We were the first website to use Loudeye.com as a provider of song examples for learning purposes. It’s great because it allows us to have samples from artists like Tim McGraw and Faith Hill to Matchbox 20 and from everyone from Alicia Keys to Nirvana to The Dave Matthews Band.

[Doak Turner] I was looking at the site and noticed you have a lesson for a list song. How does that work?

Sara Light We used some of our hit songwriter friends and some of our own songs in that particular sample lesson. We even used “We Didn’t Start The Fire” written and performed by Billy Joel as well as some other examples in different genres. That’s just a sample lesson from one of our lyric courses. A typical SongU.com course will usually consist of three to six lessons. Most of our members are taking about one course a month and really letting it sink in before moving onto another course, which we encourage.

[Doak Turner] How did you two start teaching songwriting?

Sara Light We really relate the teaching of songwriters. Danny got a scholarship to a song camp fourteen years ago. It was not NSAI’s song camp. This was before they were doing their song camps. In fact, the NSAI song camp is based on the one that we attended called The Great Smokies Song Chase.

Danny Arena Billy Edd Wheeler (Coward of the County) called me after I had applied for an ASCAP scholarship and told me he really love my music, and they gave me the scholarship to attend the camp. Me, David Wilcox and Donna Michael were the scholarship winners that particular year.

Sara Light Danny and I got engaged that year and I encouraged him to go to the event. He came back and was transformed because the faculty consisted of Debbie Hupp, who wrote “You Decorated My Life,” Lisa Palas, Billy Edd Wheeler, and Niles Borup. Chuck Neese was the publisher representing Warner/Chappell music. They are all our dear friends even today. Anyway, Billy Edd asked Danny to come back the next year and teach music and melody writing at the camp. So the next year we came straight off our honeymoon and went to the camp with Danny as faculty. Chet Atkins was there, sitting in the back listening during Danny’s first lecture.

[Doak Turner] So YOU are the one behind Chet’s success (laughter)!

Sara Light Danny was so nervous when he found out that Chet was going to be there that he dropped his lunch plate of food on his lap because his hands were shaking so much (laughter)! Chet was so amazing; he came up to Danny and told him how much he enjoyed it.

Danny Arena That year, Lisa Palas told Pat Rogers, who was president of NSAI at the time, that she had to come and see this song camp. Pat Rogers saw me do my seminar and invited me to present at the NSAI symposium event the following year as a keynote speaker.

Sara Light When Pat invited Danny and I to come to Nashville , we were still living in New Jersey at the time.

Danny Arena That year at the symposium, it was Hugh Prestwood and me as the keynote speakers (laughter) – and of course he had all of these incredible hit songs!

Sara Light The reason that we bring this up is because earlier you were talking about how NSAI transformed your life (Note: I had told Danny and Sara what a huge difference NSAI made in my songwriting journey.) Well, we are recipients of that too, so we promised ourselves that if we became successful we would give back.

[Doak Turner] So, that is how the very successful NSAI Song camps started?

Danny Arena Yes. John Ims (She’s in love with the Boy), Rick Beresford (If the Drinkin’ Don’t Lill Me) and I sat down and planned the entire curriculum for the first NSAI song camp in 1992. It was my idea to add the audition process (submissions) for the song camps.

Sara Light We have our back-story on our website to give people information about us, and how we ended up teaching songwriting for years.

[Doak Turner] You studied with Sheila Davis, didn’t you?

Sara Light Yes I did.

Danny Arena Sheila even has it in her will that Sara will be the one to take over editing her books. It’s quite an honor. She’s been a friend and a mentor to us over the years.

[Doak Turner] Please tell me more about SongU.com and why it is successful

Danny Arena Being a teacher, I’ve learned the different modalities people use to learn. People learn either by visual, audio (listening) or application. So in every lesson at SongU.com, all three of those are addressed. We have pictures and animation, audio clips and practice exercises.

Sara Light For one of my lyric assignments, students had to come up with a chorus to a verse lyric I’d written. I was able to look on the discussion board and see all the different posts and how differently everyone approached that assignment. It is great to see how different people’s minds work to write a chorus. One of our students recently went to a seminar and played a new song for songwriters Kim Copeland and Marc-Alan Barnette, and all three agreed it was the best song he’s ever written. It’s because he’s been honing his craft by taking the courses at SongU.com and he was able to apply the techniques to his songwriting. It’s really improved his writing tremendously.

Danny Arena When someone doesn’t quite understand the lesson based on the answer they post to an exercise, Sara and I can go back explain to him or her where they could improve. Then they can revisit the lesson again and post a better answer to show us they really understand the lesson.

Sara Light Also, each month we highlight a different instructor’s course and have that pro writer “in office.” That means the instructor gets involved with the students and monitors the discussion boards for their particular course.

[Doak Turner] Is there something from a lesson that you have seen a student do that really stands out at SongU.com?

Sara Light One particular student took Fett’s course on setting up a home studio for different budget levels. She went ahead and made an actual budget. She only had like fifty dollars but she did indeed set up a studio for the budget just like the lesson instructed! She already had a Sony microphone along with a set of wireless headphones that her husband used when running on the treadmill. So, she went out and bought a boom mic stand for $27.00, downloaded Pro Tools for free and she was all set. She recorded her first song in her home studio and posted it on her yearbook page.

Danny Arena She even took my course of how to get your song on the yearbook page so she could post her song in MP3 format! We went, “Oh my gosh, this really works!” (Laughter) It is really fun for us to see it really work. We had another student who wanted to record their band’s performance at a graduation party. He wanted to know how to set the microphones, gain levels and some other details. I asked Fett and Jack Sundrud, who are both SongU.com faculty, to pass along some advice. Well, Jack asked Bill Halverson, who’s previously recorded live albums for groups like Cream and CSNY. That was definitely some professional advice! Jack and Fett posted their thoughts and advice. A few days later, we heard back from that member who said the recording turned out great thanks to all the excellent advice!

Sara Light SongU.com allows us to reach people that can’t visit Nashville to learn songwriting. Eventually, we’d like to have a homecoming event for our members, maybe a formal (laughter). We know our members want to do something like that, so somewhere down the road, we hope that will be a great event.

Danny Arena I forgot to mention that SongU.com also has a song evaluation service and each member has their own personal “coach.” Someone is assigned to them to evaluate their songs and respond with personal feedback. The great thing about it is that there’s no long turnaround. You upload your song; your coach is notified immediately and you get your evaluation within a few days.

[Doak Turner] Please define Phase one and Phase two.

Sara Light Phase one was testing and our initial launch. We didn’t advertise much at all except to our priority list of people who had expressed interest while the site was being developed.

Danny Arena Phase Two will bring in the on-line library with articles containing sound clips, interviews and other items. We’ll have interviews with songwriters where you’ll be able to hear them singing some of their hit songs. For example, we have an interview with Don Henry singing that great song that was recorded by Kathy Matea, “Where have you Been.” In phase two, we’ll also add the bookstore, some more upper level courses, as well as international faculty from the UK and Scotland . We also want to broaden our scope to cover other areas like jingle writing, and film and TV.

Sara Light We already have two Canadian instructors and as our European market grows, we will make other changes. We want to have pitching outlets for our advanced songwriters or those that obtain the SongU Certification. We want to provide songwriters who are at the appropriate level the ability to have their songs heard by professionals.

Danny Arena But at SongU.com, we want to make sure our members are ready before pitching songs to a publisher. We want to know our members have the right education and the right songs to be presented to professionals. Otherwise, it’s like performing surgery without going to med school and we know songwriting is like brain surgery (Laughter).

Sara Light The songs that we would be bringing to the publishers and industry people would be valid songs that will create a respect for our members. One of the worst things you can do is bring in a publisher to a meeting and have them listen to 20 or 30 songs when the songs are not ready. You would have a heck of a time setting anther meeting with that publisher.

[Doak Turner] Your faculty has so many excellent counselors and coaches. How are those people selected?

Sara Light They are people that we have known for several years who are beginning to have success in the industry. For example, we have a former student that came through our songwriting class in Nashville . Well, when Sara was getting her ASCAP Award for the song “Home To You” (recorded by John Michael Montgomery), we saw her at the awards dinner. When we asked her what she was doing there (since she didn’t mention it in class), she replied shyly that she had won the Lilith Fair songwriting contest with a song that had come through our class! We were more proud of her than when Sara got her award! It was great to see that education thing working.

[Doak Turner] That is a success story of one of your student’s success in the first phase of your start of SongU.com.

Danny Arena Another one of our students, Steve Christopher, had a single that recently went to #7 on the Contemporary Christian charts. He is also one of our counselors. It’s great that our counselors and coaches are proof that the learning aspect of songwriting does really work!

[Doak Turner] Steve Christopher was one of the first members of the NSAI workshop that I was the coordinator for six years – he is a poster child for both of us!

Sara Light It is good to see those people succeed. Everyone is following a certain path and we hope they reach their dreams.

[Doak Turner] It helps keep people on their journey that may have given up. Wouldn’t SongU.com be that workshop that not only meets once a month, but anytime songwriter wants to learn about the craft and business?

Sara Light Yes, it compliments the live instruction that you can get in a NSAI workshop or other workshop. It can keep you motivated and help you get feedback from other professionals and members all year round.

Danny Arena The SongU.com yearbook pages have information on each of our members like where they are from, whether they are looking for co-writers, their influences. And members can upload their songs as MP3 files to be streamed off their yearbook page.

Sara Light We set up the yearbook so that our members can log in anytime and change their information on that page whenever they want.

Danny Arena The cool thing about MP3’s and how we do it on the site is that even people with 56K modems can listen in real time to the songs. There’s no wait or download time. And since we use streaming MP3’s, it’s also safer since you can’t download the files. We also use streaming MP3’s on our virtual SongU.com jukebox, where a person can search by title or by songwriter and listen to one of their songs.

[Doak Turner] Tell me the best things about www.songu.com that really make you stand out and a great value to songwriters.

Danny Arena We are affordable compared to any other distance education website on the Internet. SongU.com membership is about $26.00 per month, less than a dollar a day, which is less than what you would pay for a single guitar lesson. But you have unlimited access to all our courses all the time all year round.

Sara Light Plus, we have faculty that are actually doing what they are teaching every day –they are professional hit songwriters. One of our faculty members, Pamela Philips Oland, recently had a song in the movie “102 Dalmatians” and on TV in “The Sopranos,” not to mention having written hits in country, R&B and hip-hop.

Danny Arena SongU.com draws students that are positive and want to learn songwriting. It is really a supportive and encouraging group of songwriters. And it inspires us when we observe our members and their enthusiasm and watch their success.

[Doak Turner] One of your faculty members is the legendary Ralph Murphy, a great songwriter and one of the big people at ASCAP. His motto is “Knowledge is Power,” and how appropriate that he is part of SongU.com. What are your ultimate goals of SongU.com?

Danny Arena To reach songwriters around the world so that they can learn to become better songwriters no matter what genre of music they write.

Sara Light To watch our members have success and evolve as music evolves, staying current with the songwriting.

Danny Arena That is one great thing about SongU.com, as opposed to books. Since it’s a website, we can easily adapt to changes or trends by adding new courses or revising course content. Plus, we can stay current with our hit song examples.

Sara Light Yes, we can look at what is currently happening in the industry and how songs are being marketed and help our members to explore those new options.

Danny Arena Our faculty have written over 500 songwriting articles, taught at close to 100 song camps, have numerous hit songs and most importantly, love to teach songwriting!

[Doak Turner] Danny and Sara, it has been pleasure learning about www.songu.com and all the great things that you are doing for songwriters around the world. Thanks for your time and continued success to you!

Doak Turner

doak@nashvillemuse.com

PO Box 121456

Nashville , TN 37212

615-354-6400

www.nashvillemuse.com

"Friends Do Not Let Friends...Play To An Empty Room" - DoakTM

| Links | Articles | Interviews

Randy Owen interview – December 2007 at Dale Morris Agency headquarters.